Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

[Jarnhamar]

If you "blew someones head off" you would be a mental wreck for a long time. Infantry soldiers with 15 years in get f**ked up after seeing people hurt by others, let alone kill someone themselves.

We need one standard for not only physical fitness but what members get away with and what they don‘t. I know of a prime example where a very attractive girl who just joined the army gets doted on hand and foot by higher ups while guys with more time in, even higher rank, get boned. Such as passed up for adventure training, getting cadpat first, getting promised this course and that one. Guys are just as much to blame too for being ***sy hounds. They act like morons. Good on the girls who ignore them and doom to those who bask in the special treatment.

Infantry is a mans trade. It‘s like a big boys club. I‘m not saying guys won‘t accept girls but it takes a special type of personality in a female to fit in with the infantry. If a girl doesnt have it then shes not going to get very far at all. Fair? probably not but thats how it is and it‘s how it‘s going to be for a long time.
It‘s safe to say that the special forces this club mentality will only be that much stronger. Girls might fit in but theres very little chances due simply to the math of the situation. If 1% of the females in the CF can hack it in the infantry and then !% of them can make it in the special forces that doesnt amount to a lot of people. The physical fitness part of the house is just one very small aspect.

 

[Gibson]

Nothing pisses me off more then someone trying to make me look bad or incompetant just to impress some girl who has no interest in him anyway. I see it on my own BMQ and that‘s not even the infantry yet.

I don‘t think there‘s any physical reason women can‘t hack it in the infantry, those who sign up are in my opinion a different breed of woman anyway. I‘m sure they could handle the mental issues of death and all that crap just as well as a man.

Due to higher percentage of body fat and less aggression with the weapon they tend to be better shots anyway and that‘s the most important part of being a sniper isn‘t it??

The only limiting factor I see is the attitude of men and how we deal out preferential treatment and how some women accept it and use it to their advantage. There are those who don‘t and actually shun that practice, and those are the examples of women that belong.

 

[Enzo]

Andyboy, you‘re a bit focused on the fraternizational aspects. I‘ve been clear and I‘m trying to move away from that. The thread‘s suppose to be about females in the SF. Fine. Of course it‘s moved into this arena, hard for it not to.

So I‘ll say it again, "My primary point was that sex as in ‘the sexes‘, should be made irrelevant within the ranks." I don‘t care who you are, where you come from, how many siblings you have, your intentions after you decide to move on, or what your dog‘s name is. I do not care. I want to know that you are "qualified" to perform the task assigned to you. If this mean‘s we‘ve somehow managed to make it into the JTF and you happen to be a female, fine. I don‘t care. Just do your job.

And as for personal issues, "my Visa is maxed out and..." "My best friend was killed in a DUI this past weekend..." "My father didn‘t hug me enough as a child..." "I hate anyone born after Labour Day..." "Do you think I look fat in this LBV?" "I only drink after 9am, so it isn‘t a problem, and all of that Listerine in my barrack box is for my breath..." "My girlfriend is in another section and she‘s being shipped to Afghanistan tomorrow..."

Deal with it. It‘s the job and there should be no surprises about these kinds of things. Female, Male, Eunuchs and Ewoks. Who cares, just be professional and follow your training please.

 

[Andyboy]

Teste teste Enzo! Nice post but you didn‘t really say anything.

How can you remove Sex (capital S) from the sexes? Its human nature, it‘s like removing breathing. You said it yourself, "Young people are going to find a way to get together and have sex; regardless of the rules and the risks." and that‘s the problem. If we are going to try to field an effective fighting force that has maximum cohesivness and teamwork how can we have fraternization?

What you are missing is one of the qualifications of being a soldier: the ability to work with others as a team member. Women may or may not be able to hump like an Infantry soldier, the question is can they meld into an infantry section without affecting the dynamic it requires to have an effectice comabt team?

 

[Enzo]

By Sex from ‘sexes‘ I meant gender. Remove gender from the equation and see soldiers as people; neither male or female.

As for "and that‘s the problem. If we are going to try to field an effective fighting force that has maximum cohesivness and teamwork how can we have fraternization?"

We currently field many soldiers around the world, they are effective in their roles. From sailors on our ships, to flight crews and ground troops in over a dozen different locales. Both sexes.

"What you are missing is one of the qualifications of being a soldier: the ability to work with others as a team member"

Regardless of their gender, religion, culture or political viewpoint.

"Women may or may not be able to hump like an Infantry soldier,"

Like it or not, women ARE currently employed as infantry soldiers.

"the question is can they meld into an infantry section without affecting the dynamic it requires to have an effectice comabt team?"

That question was once asked of females serving on ships, which is now commonplace. In many trades that were "traditionally" closed to females, you‘ll now find woman serving with distinction i.e. Pilots/MARS/MP, etc... If you want to go back far enough, you‘ll have found a time when men who did not fall within the majority were denied access to certain trades as their suitabilty was called into question. How many Native Canadian pilots were there in WW1? How many Asian Canadians were there in that conflict? A few, in all trades. No, some were closed. In times past, we had racism. Now, we‘re dealing with sexism.

 

[northamericanrebel]

ya ya call me ignorant but keep woman out of combat rolls :crybaby: :boring:

 

[Jarnhamar]

"ya ya call me ignorant but keep woman out of combat rolls"

How about, call you a civilian teen-ager with zero military experience?

 

[Enzo]

It wasn‘t my intention to draw a direct correlation between racism and sexism. I was attempting to highlight the intolerances of the past with those that are expressed in the present.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The intolerances in the past were bad, of course, but ‘back then‘ they wouldnt people get away with half of the crap they do today. Sex changes, little red stress cards, going home off tour cause they think they made a mistake, can‘t pass a fitness test, want a breast enlargement, can charge a whole platoon because they are the outcast not accepted and wont take a hint. People using sexual harassment as a witch hunt or stepping ladder. Getting a little off topic though eh.

lLets look at the americans. They have more special forces type units and teams then i can count. I imagine women are not allowed in the units or rather in a front line aspect. Anyone know the reasons behind that?

 

[winchable]

http://www.cdi.org/issues/women/combat.html
I don‘t know if that‘s an entirely reliable source, but it is on the topic. it is against the idea.

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/combat.html
A pro view.

http://washtimes.com/national/20030623-122741-5014r.htm
It seems that the Americans have had enough of women in the combat arms.

I‘ve suddenly realised how useless the internet is when you need to find a reliable source, a bunch of misspelt, biased and poorly written essays.
I don‘t endorse the above links, but I just thought perhaps someone would like to read them.

 

[northamericanrebel]

ok ghost...lol whatever you say cheif

 

[Andyboy]

Enzo you are absolutely correct, there are mixed units serving all over the world, are you suggesting though that there are no problems in those deployments?

I agree with you that the answer is to see soldiers as soldiers, unfortunately experience has shown me that isn‘t possible. Human nature is human nature.

 

[OLD SCHOOL]

What happened to them doing my dishes and cleaning the arracks?

All this debate has given me a headache.

Do I want a woman beside me on an op? If she can carry 120lbs,live in the field for 2 months and has trained that way for years then sure. End of debate.

 

[Enzo]

Andyboy, I‘m suggesting that the ideal may eventually be to eliminate the gender bias and judge a person soley on their merits. As Old School says, if ‘she‘ can perform the task‘s as well as the next soldier, fine.

There will always be individual problems to sort out; if that wasn‘t the case, life would be mediocre. As for those issues pertaining to women in the combat arms, that‘s a societal problem which may never fully be worked out. On the one side, it‘s a propostion that may affect the dynamic of the men on the teams, especially in the worse case scenarios - injuries, death, capture, etc... On the other hand, half of our population is female, we may be disregarding a positive resource of personnel and ability. So long as the ‘standards‘ remain of the highest order, then whoever can meet and exceed that criteria should be able to apply for whatever position is available to them.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Well northamerican rebel. I‘m curious now. Why don‘t you think women should be allowed in combat arms? You don‘t have any military experience so can‘t speak from a personal experience BUT maybe you have another reason? Something that we might be over looking because our views may be biased? By all means do tell my friend, why do YOU feel women should not be allowed in the combat arms?

Dutch soldiers are permitted to frat with each other all they want, just not with the local population. They have perhaps a 10th or even less the harassment problems we have. Why is that?

 

[Andyboy]

Ok I see I‘m going to have to put this as plainly as possible.

In any given mixed gender unit you have the guys that are trying to get in the chick‘s pants, the guys who everyone THINKS are trying to get in the girls pants, the guy(s) who has been accused of harrassing the chick, the guys who hates the chick, the guys who couldn‘t care less either way and go out of their way to show everyone, the guys who resent the chick for supposedly getting all the attention, the guys who.... you get the picture, and I havn‘t even topuched on the chick herself OR how the NCOs act in regards to her. But all we have to do is simply reverse our human nature and ignore gender.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Reverse human nature huh. If we could do that then there would be far less violence int he world. Beautiful thought, little hard in it‘s application. Good point about all the different types of guys. I even saw myself in that list

 

[co-pilot]

i think if women want to join the military they should be able to do the same things guys do when it comes to requirements to join and not have the standards dropped because we want to be a politically correct service and if they can meet those standards and not wine and complain about it i will gladly stand next to the on any sort of operationbecause i know that if i go down that even a women will be able to pull me out

 

[Enzo]

In any mix gender unit? So you‘re proposing females are either a problem within the current system or they should be formed into their own units? The entire CF is open to anyone, period. Like it or not, females work in combat arms units and if they want to apply for the JTF, they‘re as welcome to apply as anyone else.

As for that list above, anyone remaining in the CF who‘s capable of focusing on their work? Human nature is a powerful force; as is personal discipline and teamwork.

Off topic a bit, I‘ve worked in the Caribbean with many women in private dive charter companies. They are wearing bikini‘s appropriate to the region and are usually quite fit. The guys generally don‘t break into a frenzy and interfere with the operations of the day by the distractions of their co-workers. These girls work hard and play harder. That‘s the difference; play time involves playing, while at work, it‘s business that comes first. The guys for the most part understand this and find that there are advantages to having them on their teams. If there are problems, it‘s usually with individual personality. I‘ve observed more conflict with issues of nationality and culture than any other.

That is not combat arms and I‘m not intending for a direct comparison; but the attitudes are similar.

 

[OLD SCHOOL]

Fit women in bikini‘s??
I‘m all over that like a fat kid on a smartie.
I will be the guy in the day-glo waterwings. :warstory:
So for clarity, It‘s o.k. to do the bidness during playtime but no playtime during ‘da bidness? :blotto: