2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Fishbone Jones]

I would hope so, but it would be nice if he walked in the door ready to go, and if for the next year and a bit the opposition could contribute maturely to the discourse from a position of being adequately informed, or at least guided by someone who is. It’s a hell of a big subject to play catch up on.

It was one instance. He saw trudeau's trap and said no. As things get closer, I expect he'll weigh the options and reasons for the invites and act accordingly.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Regardless how well the specific instance fits, the use of classified briefings to muzzle political opponents isn't new and certainly not unknown. As soon as a page is included in a document dump, the material on it is covered. "Oh, that wasn't supposed to be there. Nevertheless, we must assume you reasonably know about it now."

 

[brihard]

Regardless how well the specific instance fits, the use of classified briefings to muzzle political opponents isn't new and certainly not unknown. As soon as a page is included in a document dump, the material on it is covered. "Oh, that wasn't supposed to be there. Nevertheless, we must assume you reasonably know about it now."

Classified briefings don’t muzzle; they merely cause you to need to do the work to speak within the limits or what’s classified and what’s not in appropriate fora. Thousands of Canadians working in national security and defense do this every day. Information is regularly sanitized, downgraded, or tear-lined to fit necessary and appropriate dissemination and need to know.

What classified briefings do is make it harder to spout off and claim that you didn’t know better- but even that is only to an extent, because the other side also cannot readily divulge or confirm classified information to falsify your statements for partisan points.

The protections around classified information are pretty robust, but they don’t impair someone from acting or speaking truthfully and in good faith so long as they don’t divulge safeguarded or special operational information contrary to the law.

If the best defense to this is “my guy doesn’t get to sling mud as easily”, I’m simply not convinced.

Again, I expect all senior political leadership to avail themselves of the ability to know accurate information pertaining to national security, within the scope of their particular portfolio, clearance, and need to know. I trust our senior security and intelligence officials when they determine that a given issue is weighty enough to offer the briefings more broadly than would be the norm.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If the best defense to this is “my guy doesn’t get to sling mud as easily”, I’m simply not convinced.

That might be all that it is (ie. your case is strong).

Example: Adam Schiff (the US House member) was notorious for leaks, mostly untruthful ones, which is why briefings were switched from oral to written (to be able to deny creative interpretations). Obviously declining the information give politicians room to be creative.

 

[Good2Golf]

I still struggle to take seriously a contender for PM of Canada who is unwilling to receive classified briefings or to review classified reports intended to properly inform senior decision makers on risks from foreign interference or other significant threats to our national security.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d prefer as well they he get fully briefed in, and then critique the government where he can quite reasonably address things to the degree that he can publicly; not by some method of broken telephone from one of his caucus trying to inform him using some kind of veiled speech.

What classified briefings do is make it harder to spout off and claim that you didn’t know better- but even that is only to an extent, because the other side also cannot readily divulge or confirm classified information to falsify your statements for partisan points.

Absolutely.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I am hopeful for PP, but I also wouldn't want to be the PM who comes in after JT and the LPC.

That's going to be one hell of a mess to clean up. And no one if going to like the chores that are needed.

 

[RangerRay]

The CPC would be wise to stay away from this guy. Not only is he neck deep in the wilful blindness of all the money laundering at casinos by CCP connected criminals, but he was a provincial Liberal since before they became the “free-enterprise coalition”.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mike-de-jong-federal-conservatives-1.7177109

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mike-de-jong-federal-conservatives-1.7177109

Mike de Jong served as the minister responsible for gaming between 2013 to 2017, a time when suspicious transactions in B.C. peaked.

Cullen found that between 2013 and 2015, de Jong "took no meaningful action in response."

"It does not appear that Mr. de Jong received information that would have led him to identify a need for action," Cullen wrote.


In September 2015, de Jong received alarming information about the state of the industry, including that in 2014, BCLC reported 1,631 suspicious transactions with a total value of more than $195.3 million — an average of nearly 4.5 transactions and more than $500,000 per day.

De Jong responded by creating the Joint Illegal Gaming Investigation Team and issuing a letter with directions to BCLC.

Cullen wrote that de Jong accomplished these measures with "remarkable speed" but that the letter to BCLC did not go far enough, because it did not require that BCLC immediately cease accepting highly suspicious cash.

Cullen also found that prior to 2015, de Jong could have independently sought more information about the state of the industry he was responsible for.

"That it was under Mr. de Jong's watch that the tide of suspicious transactions finally turned and the suspicious cash entering the province's casinos began to decline is a testament to the significance of his efforts," wrote Cullen.

"The scale of the crisis gripping the province's casinos at this time required much more decisive action. While positive, the steps taken by Mr. de Jong were simply not commensurate with the urgency of the problem facing the industry at that time."

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That might be all that it is (ie. your case is strong).

Example: Adam Schiff (the US House member) was notorious for leaks, mostly untruthful ones, which is why briefings were switched from oral to written (to be able to deny creative interpretations). Obviously declining the information give politicians room to be creative.

His best one was the infamous phone call. The one where he read his own interpretation of the Trump/Zelensky phone call into the record, as part of his opening statement. One that was being watched, live, nationwide. He didn't admit to it, until called out for his lie. Then he said it was a parody.

Adam Schiff called out for fabricating Ukraine call transcript in opening remarks

Rep. Adam Schiff acknowledged on Thursday that he made up parts of the Ukraine phone call transcript when he delivered his opening statement at a much-watched TV hearing with the U.S. top intelligence officer.

m.washingtontimes.com

 

[brihard]

The CPC would be wise to stay away from this guy. Not only is he neck deep in the wilful blindness of all the money laundering at casinos by CCP connected criminals, but he was a provincial Liberal since before they became the “free-enterprise coalition”.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mike-de-jong-federal-conservatives-1.7177109

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mike-de-jong-federal-conservatives-1.7177109

The BC liberals, though wearing until recently the ‘liberal’ moniker, have long been the mainstream (and viable) right of centre party in BC. Just FWIW.

 

[TacticalTea]

The BC liberals, though wearing until recently the ‘liberal’ moniker, have long been the mainstream (and viable) right of centre party in BC. Just FWIW.

One can very well be a small-l liberal and right-wing. I'm sure you meant large-L Liberals.

Even then, so was Charest, who was then mocked when running for CPC leadership because he had been Quebec's Liberal premier... Such nonsense. Apparently they'd forgotten he had already been leader of the federal Conservatives in the past...

 

[brihard]

One can very well be a small-l liberal and right-wing. I'm sure you meant large-L Liberals.

Even then, so was Charest, who was then mocked when running for CPC leadership because he had been Quebec's Liberal premier... Such nonsense. Apparently they'd forgotten he had already been leader of the federal Conservatives in the past...

I was replying specifically to a prior post linking him to a Big L liberal party, specifically in BC. I was clarifying that in that province, that alignment doesn’t usually mean what it would mean elsewhere.

 

[TacticalTea]

I was replying specifically to a prior post linking him to a Big L liberal party, specifically in BC. I was clarifying that in that province, that alignment doesn’t usually mean what it would mean elsewhere.

I know, just poking fun cause you didn't capitalize.

 

[brihard]

Oh lol, sorry. Thanks.

 

[RangerRay]

The BC liberals, though wearing until recently the ‘liberal’ moniker, have long been the mainstream (and viable) right of centre party in BC. Just FWIW.

Actually, I was wrong. De Jong was not part of the “OG” BC Liberal caucus of 1991. He was first elected in 1994. By that time, Gordon Campbell had taken over the party and turned it into the “business party” of Howe Street. When the BC Liberals under Gordon Wilson unexpectedly became opposition in 1991, they were a rump “liberal” party that unexpectedly ate the left wing of the Socreds.

De Jong still turned a blind eye to all the money laundering going on at Vancouver area casinos though. Hockey bags of cash going in and leaving after a few hands of black jack.

 

[dapaterson]

De Jong still turned a blind eye to all the money laundering going on at Vancouver area casinos though. Hockey bags of cash going in and leaving after a few hands of black jack.

If I play two hands of $10 a hand blackjack and split 10s once, and leave with $17,000 in winnings, I fail to see the problem?

 

[brihard]

Actually, I was wrong. De Jong was not part of the “OG” BC Liberal caucus of 1991. He was first elected in 1994. By that time, Gordon Campbell had taken over the party and turned it into the “business party” of Howe Street. When the BC Liberals under Gordon Wilson unexpectedly became opposition in 1991, they were a rump “liberal” party that unexpectedly ate the left wing of the Socreds.

De Jong still turned a blind eye to all the money laundering going on at Vancouver area casinos though. Hockey bags of cash going in and leaving after a few hands of black jack.

Reminds me I still need to get back to and finish Sam Cooper’s book.

 

[dimsum]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/poilievre-trudeau-carbon-protest-alex-jones-diagolon-1.7183430

I really want to know what was going through Poilievre’s staffer’s heads when they (or he) suggested that they stop there. Party leaders don’t do “impromptu” stops, especially when it looks like they’re about to campaign.

Either they think that they have such a lead that they can be ok with alienating CPC voters who don’t lean as far right as the “F Trudeau” crowd, or it was a mistake. If I was part of Poilievre’s team, I wouldn’t suggest that the CPC go farther right.

 

[TacticalTea]

Nonsense.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/poilievre-trudeau-carbon-protest-alex-jones-diagolon-1.7183430

I really want to know what was going through Poilievre’s staffer’s heads when they (or he) suggested that they stop there. Party leaders don’t do “impromptu” stops,

Wrong.

especially when it looks like they’re about to campaign.

Either they think that they have such a lead that they can be ok with alienating CPC voters who don’t lean as far right as the “F Trudeau” crowd, or it was a mistake. If I was part of Poilievre’s team, I wouldn’t suggest that the CPC go farther right.

He stopped at an anti-carbon tax rally.

"If Justin Trudeau is concerned about extremism, he should look at parades on Canadian streets openly celebrating Hamas' slaughter of Jews on Oct. 7."

You're essentially saying citizens exercising their freedom of speech on a very normal issue (a tax) should be ostracised. So utterly anti-democratic of you.

 

[Halifax Tar]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/poilievre-trudeau-carbon-protest-alex-jones-diagolon-1.7183430

I really want to know what was going through Poilievre’s staffer’s heads when they (or he) suggested that they stop there. Party leaders don’t do “impromptu” stops, especially when it looks like they’re about to campaign.

Either they think that they have such a lead that they can be ok with alienating CPC voters who don’t lean as far right as the “F Trudeau” crowd, or it was a mistake. If I was part of Poilievre’s team, I wouldn’t suggest that the CPC go farther right.

This is what's sticking in your craw ?

 

[The Bread Guy]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/poilievre-trudeau-carbon-protest-alex-jones-diagolon-1.7183430

I really want to know what was going through Poilievre’s staffer’s heads when they (or he) suggested that they stop there ....

One possibility: hater's still gonna hate whether we stop by or not, cheerleaders will like it or won't hate it (with with a few on-the-far-edge folks maybe rooting even harder for us).

... If I was part of Poilievre’s team, I wouldn’t suggest that the CPC go farther right.

Interesting tightrope walk looking "not as bad as 'they' say" on the one hand (thanks in part to a ton of money spent on advertising around the time of the climb in Team Blue numbers), and maybe bringing in a few more Mad Max element members - or keeping them from voting anything other than PP's Team Blue. The lead's still there as of the latest aggregating, so ....

I'd bet hard on Team Blue winning based on these numbers right now, but once they have to commit to specific things they'll do, won't do or un-do, it'll be interesting to see what happens to the numbers.

That said, as some way smarter than me have said elsewhere, would Mulroney have done a public, impromptu stop at a rally with "F**k Turner" flags or signs visible? Joe Clark visibly drop by a "F**k Trudeau 1.0" fest? Harper visit a "F**k Martin" soiree? Different times, different parties ....