Would Mandatory National Service make the CF stronger?

[a_majoor]

This issue was discussed in the "Short Service Army" thread, and the overwhelming response was negative.

If we want to socialize children with a certain set of values, that value set needs to be reinforced through constant action and exercise, or it will just be a mental curiosity. This is similar to the public schools teachin children French, I learned it, but living in Ontario and Alberta, and travelling through the East Coast I never had a need to use the French language, and so my ability to speak french is limited to "Cafe un begin sil vous plait".

There are some values like teamwork and the will to overcome challenges which could be instilled through a properly run sports program (emphasising technical skills and merit rather than "win at any cost"), or introducing "outward bound" and "Eco Challenge race" type programs, especially for students at risk. We have to get them early, though, because by the time they come to us as recruits, their self centred values and mind sets are almost impervious to the military values, especially since we have a "kinder, gentler" recruit program.

If the people advocating "manditory service" really wanted to get the results they seem to desire, then ship these candidates to Paris Island for a dose of USMC basic, because thats what it will take to make those changes in a 17-18 year old.

 

[kellywmj]

I would agree with the position that any sort of conscription, or even an American style form of selective service registration would not survive a Charter challenge. Besides, we do not have the training facilities or instructors to deal with the trickle of low quality recruits we get now. My sister in law is a CF recruiter, and the flotsam she sees every day would make an old soldier weep. None of them would have made it through the Depot I went through. The emphasis today seems to be pass them at any cost, where as when I went through, our instructors were ruthless in weeding out those individuals who could not hack it. Anyway, my 2 cents worth.

 

[Tracker]

Wow, I haven't heard the term "Depot" in a long time, kellywmj, you must be really long in the tooth, like a hundred or so.

BMQ has changed a lot in the last hundred years, it is no longer cost effective to weed out the week at BMQ, that is attempted at the CFRC.

Instead of National Service or Obligatory Service, why not sweeten the pot a little with incentives to do some time in the CF.  Scholarships, tax breaks, employment placements after service, that sort of thing.

Maybe we need to separate the CF from the Government.  Ruling Political Parties only look 5 years into the future, but the CF needs a longer range plan.  Maybe if there was a separation, the media would quit using the CF as a political tool for embarrassing the government and actually start promoting us.  If the Canadian People had more Pride in us and knowledge of the good we do, the CF might then be considered an employer of choice instead of an employer of necessity.

Go out on the street and ask anyone if they ever heard of the Madak Pocket, then ask them if they ever heard about the Somalia scandal.  I bet more people remember the negative than the positive.

 

[George Wallace]

Being an unreconstucted cynic (that's what you get for living in Ottawa for 15 years and working for the Feds :dontpanic, I could probably stop this discussion right now by simply pointing out that compulsory service, whether military or civilian would not survive a challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Interesting......followed by the next couple of posts and a couple of drinks, I am beginning to wonder if Forced Bilingualism is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  If we can have a country that insists you be "French speaking" to advance in any Government Department, surely there would be grounds to bring in a form of Compulsory Service/National Service where by the youth of the nation must serve in the Military or Police forces or if a Conscientious Objector work in the Health Services or Fire Services.  If Ottawa wants to challenge National Service on those grounds, then Anglophones would also have grounds to challenge Language Policies/Discrimination.

Personally, I believe that National Service would be good for our youth of today.  Being a 'Cold Warrior', and having witnessed the German system, I think that this would be a good interlude for an eighteen year old.  It would give them an insight into what a job would be like.  It would fill out the Military, RCMP, Emergency, Medical and Fire Services.  It would allow those desiring further education to save some monies towards that education or even provide a means to further their education at no cost.  In the end it would greatly help in developing the 'maturity' of our youth and make them more productive and contributing members in the building of our society. 

Of course there may be some 'plugs', but I think the majority would benefit. 

Three years would be the max that I would expect this type of service to entail, most likely less.  Those who would like to continue on an make this service, military or nonmilitary, a career would be able to continue on as a 'professional'.

Just a few thoughts.....

GW

 

[Infanteer]

Where the hell did this zombie thread come from?

Anyways, I'll restate (using the original post) the position I've always held:

Ha, Heinlein has an answer for everything.  I personally wouldn't want to share a trench with someone who didn't want to be there in the first place.

"Uh, sir, why not go - well, go the limit?  Require everyone to serve and let everybody vote?"

"Young man, can you restore my eyesight?"

"Sir?  Why, no, sir!"

"You would find it much easier than to instill moral virtue - social responsibility - into a person who doesn't have it, doesn't want it, and resents having the burden thrust on him.  This is why we make it so hard to enroll, so easy to resign.  Social responsibility above the level of family, or at most of tribe, requires imagination - devotion, loyalty, all the higher virtues - which a man must develop himself; if he has them forced down him, he will vomit them out."

Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers - pg 184

That being said, you wouldn't find me arguing against a principle that required voluntary National Service (of which the military would be an important part of) if one wished to earn the sovereign franchise.

 

[48Highlander]

Agreed.  Forcing everyone to serve - bad idea.  Telling people they have to earn a vote by serving - good idea.  It'll never happen though - the current government would never even consider it, and if they did stop to think about it they'd realize that such a system would gaurantee that they'd never be elected again.

 

[Infanteer]

Agreed. Forcing everyone to serve - bad idea. Telling people they have to earn a vote by serving - good idea. It'll never happen though - the current government would never even consider it, and if they did stop to think about it they'd realize that such a system would gaurantee that they'd never be elected again.

Sure, not know.   But as long as apathy considers to be the norm in our system, perhaps those who do hold the notions of earning enfranchisement and service to the greater good to be acceptable, when the current outlook collapses under its own weight, the unrealistic proposal will become a desired alternative.

"To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy.   The unlimited democracies were unstable because their citizens were not responsible for the fashion in which they exerted their sovereign authority...other than through the tragic logic of history.   The unique "poll tax" that we must pay was unheard of.   No attempt was made to determine whether a voter was socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority.   If he voted the impossible, the disastrous possible happened instead (emphasis mine) - and responsibility was then forced on him willy-nilly and destroyed both him and his foundationless temple."

Robert Heinlein. Starship Troopers, pg 183.

 

[X Royal]

[quote author=Tracker ]
Wow, I haven't heard the term "Depot" in a long time, kellywmj, you must be really long in the tooth, like a hundred or so.
[/quote]

I did my basic infantry trg. in "Depot" with 1RCR in 1978. According to your profile I can't be to much older than you.

Pro Patria

And yes the wash-out rate(for Cornwallis & TQ3 combined) was quite high(well over 50%). But then now, they don't use the 25 mile ruck march as a must pass P.O. check.

 

[Boydfish]

I could probably stop this discussion right now by simply pointing out that compulsory service, whether military or civilian would not survive a challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

You'd be extremely wrong on that point.

The first line of Trudeau's Charter renders it neutered and useless, especially in cases like this:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

In other words, if the government can convince itself that it needs to do this to protect the policies of the Liberal Party of Canada, the Charter doesn't apply.  If the government says that it needs mandatory service in order to maintain "a free and democratic society", then it's legal.  Who determines what is a "free and democratic society"?  Why, that would be the government!  Remember boys and girls, Trudeau used the Charter to strip you of your rights, not actually protect your rights.

The Canadian Emergencies Act, which replaced the War Measures Act, does prohibit the forced conscription of people into the CF during war, it is worded in such typically Liberal weasel wording as to be irrelevant as well:

40.
(1) While a declaration of a war emergency is in effect, the Governor in Council may make such orders or regulations as the Governor in Council believes, on reasonable grounds, are necessary or advisable for dealing with the emergency.
(2) The power under subsection (1) to make orders and regulations may not be exercised for the purpose of requiring persons to serve in the Canadian Forces.

The CEA is simply an act of the Canadian Parliament, meaning that they can amend that out as they see fit.  Alternative to that, they can simply compel service into the newly created "Territorial Security Force" or "Uncle Jean's Personal Bodyguards".  As long as they aren't being put into the CF, there is no violation.

In terms of mandatory service, I think that it would be better to do at a provincial level, rather than confederal.  If it was done to provide a local defence/ domestic emergency response capability to relive the CF of the responsibility of domestic operations, you'd see it be viable.  By doing it provincially, the risk of eventually having CF NCOs and junior officers having to ride herd over unwilling conscripts would be reduced.

 

[pbi]

I'm not personally fond of the idea of conscription, since as a rule it produces marginally motivated soldiers who are just counting the days. It is best suited to "mass" armies, or to purely home-defence armies. In general, I think you will find that the calibre of most compulsory service troops in Europe was/is fairly low. This is perhaps why these countries tended to rely on more professionally manned "elite" units such as their marines, commandos, or "Legion" equivalents for the "real" work.

It is also quite telling that voluntarism is beginning to replace compulsory service to a greater or lesser degree in some major European nations such as France. But not in all nations: in Germany, while there are professionals (especially amongst officers and WOs/NCOs) the whole issue of a fully professional force is considered to be politically unacceptable, since it might lose touch with society and then, well...you know.....

Perhaps the most telling blow against compulsory service was struck by the US after Vietnam, when compulsory service was shelved (but not struck down) and   the Volunteer Army (VOLAR) established. The US Army has resolutely stuck by volunteers ever since (despite a rocky start with sub-standard applicants...) and even in their current severe manpower crisis they are relying on ARNG/USAR to fill out the ranks, although I know that some of those soldiers might dispute the exact meaning of the term "volunteer".   IMHO compulsory service is recognized in the Us (just as it is here in Canada...) as potential political dynamite, to be utilized only as a last resort.

We are an expeditionary force with no mass-army home defence scenario realistically in sight. Securing Canada againt the likely threats is as much a CSIS/law enforcement job as it is Army, if not more. The recent guidance from the CLS is focusing us on being a flexible force that can handle the Three Block War (3BW) in an expeditionary setting. This requires a solid professional Regular Army capability backed up by a Reserve that is operationally focused and well motivated, not an Army composed of a mass of time servers who really don't want to be there.

Cheers

 

[aesop081]

I could not agree more with PBI's statement.  Having seen conscript soldiers from several nation ( Russians in perticular), i can attest to his assesement of these soldiers ( generaly speaking of course).

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Interesting......followed by the next couple of posts and a couple of drinks, I am beginning to wonder if Forced Bilingualism is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.   If we can have a country that insists you be "French speaking" to advance in any Government Department, surely there would be grounds to bring in a form of Compulsory Service/National Service where by the youth of the nation must serve in the Military or Police forces or if a Conscientious Objector work in the Health Services or Fire Services.   If Ottawa wants to challenge National Service on those grounds, then Anglophones would also have grounds to challenge Language Policies/Discrimination.

I wouldn't think so because, as a Canadian, you aren't forced to work for the state.  Thus the state's forced bilingualism is simply a requirement for that particular job and, just like the EXPRES test, is not contrary to the charter.

 

[George Wallace]

I wouldn't think so because, as a Canadian, you aren't forced to work for the state. Thus the state's forced bilingualism is simply a requirement for that particular job and, just like the EXPRES test, is not contrary to the charter.

So in your opinion unilingual Canadians are not discriminated against in applying for and advancing in the employ of the Federal Government?

GW

 

[48Highlander]

I wouldn't think so because, as a Canadian, you aren't forced to work for the state.   Thus the state's forced bilingualism is simply a requirement for that particular job and, just like the EXPRES test, is not contrary to the charter.

    Hah.  Well, say the state refuses to hire you because you're black.  Well, then not being black would simply be the requirement for that particular job, and not contrary to the charter.

    Any limitation to employment which cannot be demonstrated to be a reasonable pre-requisite is against the law.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We have had several language threads,..........back to the topic

                                          Would Mandatory National Service make the CF stronger?

 

[Infanteer]

No.

 

[48Highlander]

No.

Haven't we had several threads on that too?

 

[Reccesoldier]

While I agree with all the reasons not to institute forced service I can honestly say that having worked with Conscripts and competed against them in the Boeselager competition, that just because you are a conscript doesn't mean that you can not be a good soldier. It's the same as anything else you get out of it what you put in.

As far as voluntary service creating better soldiers the same thing applies. I've been on tour with guys who were only there to buy black market CD's and collect the extra pay. They had no real interest in being a soldier and were there just because they couldn't get a job out on civy street. Hell we all know oxygen thiefs in our own units, screen door on a submarine is a good way to describe a lot of the ones I've known.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Let's look past the conscript thing for a minute. National Service doesn't mean just military. Any Federal job should be open, within reason. Postal, Fisheries, Resources, etc. 18 years old? Not going to school? Off you go. Already working? You get your job back when you finish NS. Low pay scale if you wait and get called, but a bonus if you volunteer. No NS, no benefits (welfare, medical, old age pension, etc). Germany had a similar system in the 70's (may still have). It seemed to work for them. It instilled national pride and a work ethic. Both sorely lacking in a lot of our youth.

 

[Veterans son]

Let's look past the conscript thing for a minute. National Service doesn't mean just military. Any Federal job should be open, within reason. Postal, Fisheries, Resources, etc. 18 years old? Not going to school? Off you go. Already working? You get your job back when you finish NS. Low pay scale if you wait and get called, but a bonus if you volunteer. No NS, no benefits (welfare, medical, old age pension, etc). Germany had a similar system in the 70's (may still have). It seemed to work for them. It instilled national pride and a work ethic. Both sorely lacking in a lot of our youth.

Both an excellent and informative post, recceguy!