• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Women in U.S. infantry (USMC, Rangers, etc. - merged)

LTC Germano was a battalion commander and not the depot commander which is a BG.The NYT article had an agenda.Here is another article from a local SC paper.

http://www.islandpacket.com/2015/07/09/3829787_parris-island-battalion-commanding.html?rh=1
 
PMedMoe said:
Maybe some of those female Marines need to grow thicker skin.  ::)
Not all who responded to the survey were female.  Her chain of command included many males, including instructors and officers.  Perhaps everyone needs to grow a thicker skin or perhaps the half her command she pissed off took it as an opportunity to can her....
 
I've learned (although I too often forget) over 70+ years of experience that there are always two sides to every story: a few good commanders have been fired for "speaking truth to power," and there are, sadly, too many people who are poorly suited for command and who need to be fired.
 
The CF must have a better command selection process than does the US military.The USN particularly sack a number of skippers annually.
 
tomahawk6 said:
The CF must have a better command selection process than does the US military.The USN particularly sack a number of skippers annually.

Not really.  Being much smaller, having a much smaller pool to draw from, the CAF can't just fire people without just cause (criminal being the most likely) and replace them quickly with a qualified replacement.  The CAF is a little more lenient with screw ups, preferring to look at them more as being "learning points" than failures.  At times politics do come into play; one example would be the firing of Col Morneau of the CAR prior to deploying to Somalia. 

[Edit to add:  In no way am I suggesting that Col Morneau was replaced for criminal reasons.  It was POLITICAL.  He stated that one of his Commandos was not ready to go and had a list of people that should not deploy; and for that he was overridden by higher ups.  His replacement was less capable than he, and the end result was the "Somalia Affair".  Col Morneau's 'firing' saw him promoted and posted OUTCAN to Italy, so it was not a career ender for him.]
 
Underway said:
Not all who responded to the survey were female.

The part I quoted referred to "female" Marines.

Although, I have to say if any leader (male or female) told me that "rape was preventable, that those who drink put themselves in position to be assaulted", I'd pretty much dismiss them (in my mind) anyway.

 
PMedMoe said:
Although, I have to say if any leader (male or female) told me that "rape was preventable, that those who drink put themselves in position to be assaulted", I'd pretty much dismiss them (in my mind) anyway.

What is untrue about that statement?

Those who drink put themselves into positions for all sorts of unpleasant outcomes - assaults, robberies, motor vehicle accidents, dumb "hold my beer and watch this" stunts.

Situational awareness and the ability and willingness to defend oneself can indeed reduce the likelihood of rape or any other violent crime. Not completely, but it reduces the odds.

"I can't do anything to prevent being raped/murdered/robbed/hit by a bus while I dash across the road" is a stupid attitude.
 
It would all depend on how it was said.

I know there are situations one should never put oneself in; however, I'm sure there's people who have been raped who have taken all the precautions they could (besides never leaving their home which isn't 100% effective).  I bet comments like that would go over really well with them.

Anyway, I don't want to start a conversation about victim blaming, etc.
 
PMedMoe said:
It would all depend on how it was said.

Precisely.

And, as she seemed to care about her Marines, I presume that she meant it as she should have meant it.
 
Besides, we have a whole thread devoted to sexual assault, harassment and victim blaming in the CF to go around.

I think it's pretty much a moot point anyway, based on the latest statements coming out of the Pentagon regarding full integration into combat roles.

Three Women Advance to Next Phase of Army Ranger School

http://www.defenseone.com/management/2015/07/three-women-advance-next-phase-army-ranger-school/117523/

Three women will join 158 men for intensive Ranger training in the mountains of Georgia next month, making them the first to qualify for the second phase of one of the military’s toughest special-operations courses, Army officials said Friday. The announcement came just hours after Defense Secretary Ash Carter signaled his support for women to serve in elite combat jobs.

The 161 students began the first portion of Ranger School, called the Darby phase, on June 21 at Fort Benning, along with 201 others who did not successfully complete the course. They won’t get much of a breather to celebrate: they’ll enter the mountain phase on Monday.

Then, after eight days of training in military mountaineering and techniques and 10 days of leading patrols in Georgia’s Chattahoochee National Forest, they’ll be assessed on their performance. Success means advancing again, to the Florida phase that starts Aug. 1.

“The students of this class, just as all other Ranger classes, have shown strength and determination to persevere and complete the first phase of this rigorous course in the heat of the Georgia summer,” said Col. David Fivecoat, who leads the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade. “I’m confident that they are trained and ready.”

Most of the 201 dropped from the course struggled to lead patrols, Army officials said, a challenge that has persisted throughout the last several classes. That was the reason given for dropping several of the 19 women who began the first gender-integrated Ranger course on April 2.

Of that initial group of women, eight had done well enough in the first phase to try again. The second time through, five were dropped, but three excelled at enough aspects of the course to earn the right to start the whole thing over. These three at last cleared the major hurdle of the Darby phase on Friday.

More women will likely follow, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno said at the end of May. The mixed-gender course was initially intended as a one-time test case as part of a military-wide assessment of the barriers that remain to full gender-integration across the branches. But Odierno told reporters, “We’ll probably run a couple more pilots. It’s been a real success for us, and we’ll see how it goes from there.”

All military occupations will be opened to women by next January unless a service requests and is granted an exemption for a particular set of jobs — a decision that Marine Corps commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford may have to face twice as both the current commandant and also President Obama’s nominee for Joint Chiefs chairman, according to the Marine Corps Times. Dunford received a relatively easy hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee on Friday, and committee Chairman John McCain, R-Ariz., told Politico the full Senate could confirm him as early as next week.

Earlier Friday, Secretary Carter talked about opening to women the remainder of the military’s occupational specialties. “I’m really committed to seeing this through,” he told troops at Fort Bragg, N.C.“Where I can have another half of our population be in that recruiting and retention pool, that’s a pretty good deal for the department,” he said. “It’s like doubling the population of the country.”

Carter said he expects to “close this chapter” of looking at which jobs should exclude women “by year-end or so.”
 
tomahawk6 said:
LTC Germano was a battalion commander and not the depot commander which is a BG.The NYT article had an agenda.Here is another article from a local SC paper.

http://www.islandpacket.com/2015/07/09/3829787_parris-island-battalion-commanding.html?rh=1

The first one actually seemed to show both sides more...

Given that the CO asked to be relieved of command as she felt her higher Commander was undermining her ability to command as he did not trust her judgement, I am inclined to to take her side as I have been damn near doing the same thing.

We are taught that *Commanders* are confident, not afraid to take decisive action, lead by example and "never pass a fault." The few officers I have with or for that fit that description appear to have very little success from a "career" perspective.

She appears to have been confident in what she was doing, taking decisive action, leading by example and never passing a fault (aka having the chairs for "weak" females removed, pushing for integration, etc). As the Big Cod writes in his book "Leadership," "being decisive means pissing people off."
 
I never met anyone who wanted to be relieved,too much is at stake career wise.Once relieved your career is effectively over.With a relief on your record any chance of making Colonel is out the window.In the Army if you have a successful command tour you should go on to make Colonel and be selected for the War College.You dont get a brigade command without having gone to the War College.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Why isnt this in the Ranger School megathread ?  >:D
Good point - merging this with other "women in the U.S. infantry" thread.

 
They may yet succeed in spite of all naysayers...

Military.com

Two Female Officers Advance to Final Phase of Army Ranger School


Military.comJul 31, 2015 | by Matthew Cox

Two of the three female officers attending U.S. Army Ranger School have advanced into the final phase of the all-male infantry course, Fort Benning, Ga., officials announced Friday.

The two females and 125 men successfully completed the 18-day Mountain Phase of the course and will begin the third and final, Swamp Phase of Ranger School, located at Camp Rudder in Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., on Aug. 2.
One woman and 60 men will be recycled, or given a second attempt at passing Mountain Phase of Ranger School, which starts Saturday, Aug. 8. 

"The Ranger students, both male and female, are two-thirds of the way done with Ranger School.  I was very impressed with the students' toughness at leading platoon-size patrols in the North Georgia Mountains, during this extremely hot summer," said Col. David Fivecoat, commander of the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade, in the July 31 release. "The coastal swamps of Florida will continue to test the students-only the best will be successful and earn the Ranger Tab."

(...SNIPPED)
 
S.M.A. said:
They may yet succeed in spite of all naysayers...

Military.com
Still there ....
Of the 19 women who started Ranger School, a captain and a first lieutenant – both West Point graduates – remain. Make it through one more week of swamp training, and they will become the first women to wear a Ranger tab ....
 
The impact of social media on this topic:

Three of those 16 women are still in the school, 115 days after they started the most difficult leadership course the Army offers. Two could graduate on Aug, 21 if they are successful with patrols and peer reviews in the Florida swamps, and a third is repeating the mountain phase.

In addition to managing a historic first, Fivecoat has had to do it amid a swirl of social media attention. A lot of people, those have earned the Ranger tab and those who have not, have an opinion and they are not shy about voicing it.

“I think the older generation has a bigger problem with it than the younger generation,” Fivecoat said. “...There are a whole bunch of people on Facebook who seem to have problems with it.”

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/article30637965.html
 
Even if they make it through, there is no guarantee that they will be allowed to joint the 75th Ranger Regt. The Army still has to make a decision on opening the unit to women.

Will the Army open its elite Ranger Regiment to women? A controversial decision awaits.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/08/11/will-the-army-open-its-elite-ranger-regiment-to-women-a-controversial-decision-awaits/

EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. – Air National Guard C-130s roared over the lush, shaggy grass of the Elizabeth Drop Zone here last week, a near-steady hum overhead. Army Ranger students were a few hours into a mission known as Operation Pegasus, and needed to parachute in from a height of about 1,100 feet.

Air crews made several passes without letting any students out due to breezy conditions deemed unsafe for jumping. But eventually, the students’ green chutes dotted the early evening Thursday sky. They floated down into the open fields of Eglin with 70 pounds of equipment, food and water before disappearing into thick brush, beginning a 10-day exercise that ends this Saturday and is the last major field event in the Army’s famously difficult Ranger School.

History is in the balance: For the first time, two female students advanced to the third and final phase of the notoriously exhausting course in the swamps of Florida and are within reach of graduating. If they pass, they will become the first Ranger-qualified women in the history of the U.S. military and will be celebrated at an Aug. 21 graduation ceremony at Fort Benning, Ga., that is expected to draw not only family and friends, but hundreds of other well-wishers and media from across the country.

If they graduate, the Army must confront a separate, but related, decision: Whether to allow women to try out for the elite 75th Ranger Regiment. The highly trained Special Operations unit carries out raids and other difficult missions and includes about 3,600 soldiers, according to a recent Government Accountability Office report. It remains completely closed to women, even though some of the jobs in it, ranging from parachute rigger to intelligence analyst, are open in other parts of the Army.

The women were allowed into Ranger School this year as part of the military’s ongoing assessment of how to integrate women into combat roles. In 2013, Pentagon leaders decided to rescind the long-standing policy banning women from serving in combat-arms jobs like infantryman. Thus far, the Army has said that any woman who graduates will be allowed to wear the prestigious Ranger Tab, but won’t be allowed to serve in the Ranger Regiment. The decoration is highly respected across the military and considered a necessity to advance in many Army careers.

Other elite forces, including the Navy SEALs and Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, also are grappling with whether they will incorporate more women in the future, and how. If the services want to keep any position closed, they must seek an exception to the new policy from the Pentagon in coming months.

Critics of integrating the military’s most elite units with women have so far been able to say that no woman has demonstrated she can keep up with men by passing Ranger School, a physical and mental crucible that is considered one of the military’s most difficult courses and dates back to the 1950s. It includes phases at Fort Benning, on the mountains of northern Georgia and in the coastal Florida Panhandle swamps in and around Eglin. A woman completing the course would weaken the argument against gender integration in the military.

The Army allowed a handful of journalists to observe three days of Ranger School at Eglin on the Florida Panhandle last week, an effort to demystify how it is evaluating soldiers and underscore that the female students there are being treated no differently than the men. The decision has prompted criticism from some graduates of the course, but Col. David Fivecoat, commander of the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade that oversees the school, said doing so showed transparency.

Fivecoat said he is aware of the scrutiny Ranger School faces, but thinks opening it to women is reasonable considering that women regularly served alongside men who were in combat units over the last decade. He recalled leading an infantry battalion with the 101st Airborne Division of Fort Campbell, Ky., in Afghanistan in 2010 and 2011, and sending at least two female soldiers to virtually all of his bases so that they were available to search women and children.

“I wanted that capability in country, and this to me seems like a logical step,” he said. “Why wouldn’t you want that woman that you’re going to put out there to provide that capability to be Ranger-trained?”

About 4,000 students attempt Ranger School each year, with about 1,600 — 40 percent — eventually graduating. They include soldiers who will serve in the Ranger Regiment, but also many others who serve in conventional infantry units as well as military policemen, helicopter pilots and some members from the other U.S. armed services. Many Ranger School graduates will never serve in the Ranger Regiment.

New soldiers who are recruited for the Ranger Regiment typically take the eight-week Ranger Assessment and Selection Program course after entering the Army, but also wait for a chance to go to Ranger School and graduate from it before assuming positions of leadership. If they do not, they are eventually swapped to another unit, said Lt. Col. Bart Hensler, commander of the 6th Ranger Training Battalion that trains Ranger students at Eglin.

The Ranger Regiment also requires its leaders — new company commanders, for example — to graduate from Ranger School before assuming their positions, Army officials said. Additional training also is required to remain in the Ranger battalions.

Twenty women qualified for the Ranger School class that began in April, joining 380 men. Ninety-five men already have graduated, including 37 who completed each of the three phases on the first try. More than half of all the students from the April class — 257 men and 17 women — already have been dropped.

Depending on his or her performance, a Ranger student can be “recycled” and sent back to the beginning of a phase multiple times. The three remaining women left in the course now were recycled twice during the first “Darby Phase” that takes place at Fort Benning, and then granted a “Day 1 recycle” that allows them to try again, but only if they started over at the beginning with a difficult four-day physical fitness session again, too. They did so and passed. All are graduates of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., but the Army declines to identify them, citing their right to privacy.

Once in the Mountain Phase, two of the three women advanced on the first try. But they still face another challenge in addition to the requirements of Florida: exhaustion. By the next Ranger School graduation ceremony, they and 28 men who started Ranger School alongside them will have endured through more than 120 days of training. That’s considered a significant hardship: If a student passes each phase on the first try, the course is 61 days long, or half as long as the women and a few dozen of their peers now have been in training.

The final field exercise at Eglin last week began with Operation Pegasus, a combined operation in which students who are airborne-qualified jumped from C-130s, and those who are not climbed aboard 11 UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters as part of a simulated air assault on the drop zone. One of the two women and 81 of the 165 men jumped from the C-130s.

Surprises can still occur that prevent a student from graduating. During the parachuting, for example, the rucksacks for two students disconnected from them and screamed to the ground from more than 300 feet high. A deep thump echoed across the drop zone as the second one crashed. Unless the equipment was deemed faulty, the student responsible will be held back at Ranger School.

“As soon as it dropped, he pretty much knew his fate,” said Maj. Eric Nylander, the executive officer of the battalion training Ranger students at Eglin.

The students will live and train outdoors for the remainder of the 10-day field exercise. Many of them are likely nursing injuries and other physical problems, but must press on anyway to graduate. Occasionally, some simply give up, said Capt. George Calhoun, a Ranger instructor who previously led an infantry platoon in Afghanistan. He recalled one student who simply refused to leave the swamp one day after reaching a breaking point.

“Some of them say, ‘I don’t want to do this anymore.’ And some just stop. They quit by their action,” Calhoun said.

After the students parachuted into Eglin last week, they fanned out into the woods near the drop zone. Their mission included searching for a variety of locations on the base containing materials they might search for in an overseas mission, including a mortar launcher and chemicals used in improvised explosive devices.

A Ranger student prepares to traverse the Yellow River that winds through Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., on Tuesday as he takes on the third phase of Ranger School. The 17-day phase is the third and final portion of the school. (Dan Lamothe/ The Washington Post)
Fivecoat said he wants to do whatever is possible to make sure that Ranger School is neither any harder nor any easier for the female students. After the initial phase with women was held at Fort Benning, two of the instructors based there visited others in northern Georgia and in Florida for a meeting without senior Ranger School leaders to discuss what worked and what needed improvement. Fivecoat said he wanted them to speak candidly.

“I’m trying to make sure they have every opportunity to succeed or fail,” Fivecoat said of the female students. “I’m not naive enough to tell you that there aren’t folks out here that aren’t real big fans of it, but that’s our leadership issue that we dealt with.”

The graduation ceremony, he acknowledged, will be closely watched if women complete the course.

“Like any military organization, we’re doing prudent planning to prepare for that eventuality,” he said. “We think it’s going to be a big deal, and we think there will be a lot of media.” He later added: “It’s going to be a long week.”
 
As a combat unit Congress would have to approve women in the infantry.Not going to happen.
Having a Ranger tab looks good on your record.Not alot of officers with a Ranger tab serve in the Regiment for that matter.
 
tomahawk6 said:
As a combat unit Congress would have to approve women in the infantry.Not going to happen.
Having a Ranger tab looks good on your record.Not alot of officers with a Ranger tab serve in the Regiment for that matter.

Am I wrong in thinking that Congress has already given that mandate to open up combat positions to women?

Or is the direction only coming from the powers that be in the Pentagon?
 
Back
Top