Who gets to call themselves a ‘combat veteran’? - Task and Purpose

[dapaterson]

Then there are the reverse, retired military fully convinced of their own brilliance that was so horribly undervalued by the CAF.

You can frequently find them hovering around the mess, a year or so later, looking for advice on rejoining.

 

[Haggis]

It's because Military members are conditioned and trained to have abnormally high levels of conformity, obedience, humility, discipline, respect, etc.

Our "self-loathing" is actually a form of control that has been psychologically conditioned into us.

We have also been conditioned by the system to not reward e ceptional mlm performance and devotion to duty as those qualities are the minimum standard expected, wherein many civilian and OGD workplaces recognize and reqard mediocrity.

I'm really only discovering this now that I'm out and have transitioned to civilian life. I would say compared to some of my colleagues, I'm very polite and more disciplined in a lot of ways but this approach doesn't always pay off in a non-military context.

True. Sometimes "the RSM" makes an appearance.

In the CAF this would have immediate and severe consequences but outside the Military hierarchy, the consequences are way less severe.

Not everywhere. I've seen a few cases in my employer where behavoiur deemed acceptable in the CAF landed folks a seat outside rhe HR office or an escort the parking lot with their belongings in a box.

 

[Infanteer]

So, all combat veterans are war veterans, while not all war veterans are combat veterans. The former is not superior in any way to the latter, nor does it deserve some sort of badge, but the categorization can be useful in defining one's experiences.

I'll revise my position. Someone can be a combat veteran without having served in a war. Law enforcement officers getting in a gun duel with criminals are also combat veterans, but not war veterans.

So, not all combat veterans are war veterans, and not all war veterans are combat veterans. "Who cares?" some say, but I still stand by my statement that it is a useful categorization for one's experiences (it's not useful in defining or valuing service to one's country or cause though).

There is a great video profile on James Vasquez, who is worth following on Twitter, which illustrates why this categorization is useful. Combat, as defined above, was a crucible that defines him.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1580344824389341184

 

[KevinB]

LEO Shootings/Gunfights are not combat.
Not to diminish those as I’ve been in more than 1, but most LE situations are generally not multiple attacker firefights and again generally end after 1 set engagement period. It’s not a multi incident TIC.

 

[Infanteer]

If I stick to the definition that combat is an action "that one is engaging in trying to kill someone while at risk of taking a killing shot back" then many cases should be - I'm thinking of things like the famous LA bank robbery. Just trying to stay logically consistent.

 

[KevinB]

If I stick to the definition that combat is an action "that one is engaging in trying to kill someone while at risk of taking a killing shot back" then many cases should be - I'm thinking of things like the famous LA bank robbery. Just trying to stay logically consistent.

Understood.

My take is:
A shooting is where I shoot someone without taking fire.
A gunfight is where we exchange fire.
A gunfight in combat is where more than just gunfire is exchanged.

Shootings are better than Gunfights

 

[Infanteer]

That would eliminate 95% of the TICs in Afghanistan in being categorized as combat.

 

[Haggis]

If I stick to the definition that combat is an action "that one is engaging in trying to kill someone while at risk of taking a killing shot back" then many cases should be - I'm thinking of things like the famous LA bank robbery. Just trying to stay logically consistent.

Victoria PD enters the chat.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Victoria PD enters the chat.

Saanich, actually.

 

[Rifleman62]

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[Haggis]

Saanich, actually.

Both Saanich and Vic PDs were involved with theee officers from each service wounded.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Both Saanich and Vic PDs were involved with theee officers from each service wounded.

Yes, I know. But the event happened in Saanich.

 

[Pieman]

I personally consider a "combat veteran" as someone serving who has deployed to a war zone. I suspect that is how the vast majority of the public would define it and this is how it is currently defined by VA and VAC, from what I understand. Why change that perspective?

In conversations, I find the distinction of having actually experienced combat is found when soldiers say someone has "seen combat".

I've heard soldiers say something like:

"That's Joe, he did a tour in Afghanistan." (Deployed but no direct combat )

vs.

"That's Joe, he was in Afghanistan and has seen combat." (Deployed and actively engaged the enemy)

vs.

"That's Joe, he went to the sand box then got fat and ate ice cream all day." (Deployed and likes ice cream)

They are all combat veterans. The one who actually fought gets the "seen combat" designation by his peers.

Perhaps there is a need to recognize having "seen combat" more formally rather than changing the definition of "Combat Veteran"?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I personally consider a "combat veteran" as someone serving who has deployed to a war zone. I suspect that is how the vast majority of the public would define it and this is how it is currently defined by VA and VAC, from what I understand. Why change that perspective?

In conversations, I find the distinction of having actually experienced combat is found when soldiers say someone has "seen combat".

I've heard soldiers say something like:

"That's Joe, he did a tour in Afghanistan." (Deployed but no direct combat )

vs.

"That's Joe, he was in Afghanistan and has seen combat." (Deployed and actively engaged the enemy)

vs.

"That's Joe, he went to the sand box then got fat and ate ice cream all day." (Deployed and likes ice cream)

They are all combat veterans. The one who actually fought gets the "seen combat" designation by his peers.

Perhaps there is a need to recognize having "seen combat" more formally rather than changing the definition of "Combat Veteran"?

My grandfather, a survivor of many WW1 Infantry battles with the CEF, said: You weren't really at the front unless you got a 'whiff of gas'. Which he had.

I'm kind of glad the criteria have loosened up somewhat since then

 

[Pieman]

My grandfather, a survivor of many WW1 Infantry battles with the CEF, said: You weren't really at the front unless you got a 'whiff of gas'. Which he had.

.
Yea, that's a stiff requirement and he must have been one tough man.

Having been to "the front" seems to be the equivalent to today's "seen combat" or another term "outside the wire".

 

[GK .Dundas]

.
Yea, that's a stiff requirement and he must have been one tough man.

Having been to "the front" seems to be the equivalent to today's "seen combat" or another term "outside the wire".

During the American civil war it was referred to as "seeing the elephant"
I sometimes wonder what Roman Legionaries used to refer to it as?
I can all too easily recall my Maternal Grandfather trying to sleep/breathe what I suspect what was 1 &1/6th of lungs.yeah, I think the he qualifies as a tough guy he lived with that and his nightmares until 1980- 81

 

[KTown Cowboy]

...which brings me to a related thing that grinds my gears. CD1, CD2, etc isn't supposed to be used as a post-nominal.

Capt Bloggins, CD is fine. Capt Bloggins, CD3, is not.



Decorations (other than the VC and CV, as per Annex A):

1. Military writing custom dictates that the award of bars to decorations is not indicated in post-nominals. Similarly, the award of a clasp to the CD does not change the post-nominal.

Capt John Doe, CD, MBA, CPA (Candidate)
Finance Officer

Is a personal favorite of mine.

 

[CountDC]

that had me for a second until I noticed the Candidate. Then I realized everything after the CD is questionable.

3.11. DND and CAF senders may append military post-nominals, e.g. MMM, CD, after their name and at the sender’s discretion. While there is no limit on the number of postnominals that might be appended in an ESB, any post-nominal from the Canadian Honours system that are included in an ESB must be based on a requirement of the position or linked to a rank.
3.12. DND and CAF senders may append non-military post-nominals, e.g. Professional doctorate (MD), Professional Engineer (PEng) or Academic doctorate (PhD), when they reflect an advanced degree that is a requirement for the duties of the sender’s position.
3.13. Post-nominals reflecting academic degrees, industry certifications and professional qualifications are not permitted in DND and CAF ESB, e.g. bachelor’s degree (BA), certified information system security professional (CISSP), information technology infrastructure library (ITIL), Microsoft certified software engineer (MCSE) or project management professional (PMP).

 

[Haggis]

that had me for a second until I noticed the Candidate. Then I realized everything after the CD is questionable.

3.11. DND and CAF senders may append military post-nominals, e.g. MMM, CD, after their name and at the sender’s discretion. While there is no limit on the number of postnominals that might be appended in an ESB, any post-nominal from the Canadian Honours system that are included in an ESB must be based on a requirement of the position or linked to a rank.
3.12. DND and CAF senders may append non-military post-nominals, e.g. Professional doctorate (MD), Professional Engineer (PEng) or Academic doctorate (PhD), when they reflect an advanced degree that is a requirement for the duties of the sender’s position.
3.13. Post-nominals reflecting academic degrees, industry certifications and professional qualifications are not permitted in DND and CAF ESB, e.g. bachelor’s degree (BA), certified information system security professional (CISSP), information technology infrastructure library (ITIL), Microsoft certified software engineer (MCSE) or project management professional (PMP).

Now that the government writ large, which of course includes the DND and CAF, has gone to shared office space and a hybrid work model, it's much harder for folks hang all their shingles and certificates at work. Post-nominal filled ESBs are the new electronic "I love me"' walls.

 

[dapaterson]

Interestingly, BA is not permitted, but rmc is...