Who gets to call themselves a ‘combat veteran’? - Task and Purpose

[brihard]

* Yes, others don't receive recognition at this time either, like SAR crews or NORAD crews. I think they should get recognition as well, be it a SAR medal after X time or something like that.

SSM with ‘RESCUE’ bar? Definitely fitting to give them something to tuck in there between their CDs and their SC/MB/MSMs.

 

[KevinB]

The most sensical definition of combat to me is that one is engaging in trying to kill someone while at risk of taking a killing shot back. Could be two foot soldiers with bayonets, two tanks dueling over a crest, artillery crews firing at each other, or a plane doing a mission while a AD crew shoots. You can probably quibble about this with a bunch of "what abouts" but in general it seems intuitive to me.

So, a combat veteran is someone who experienced combat as defined above.

My only issue with the above is personnel riding in vehicle that gets an IED.
They where not necessarily on a Combat mission, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Same with folks sitting on a FOB that gets rocketed or mortared.

A war veteran is someone who served somehow in a theatre of war. So a clerk on base in theatre is a war veteran, as is a drone pilot in Vegas flying a UAS into a theatre from afar. Again, you can quibble about this with a bunch of "what abouts" but it seems intuitive to me.

Same quibble about the clerk that gets mortared.

So, all combat veterans are war veterans, while not all war veterans are combat veterans. The former is not superior in any way to the latter, nor does it deserve some sort of badge, but the categorization can be useful in defining one's experiences.

I like veteran period full stop.

When I first joined back in the 80’s the only folks we considered veterans who where still around in any number where those who’d deployed to Korea (and some WW2). I don’t recall when the concept that any service always meant one was a veteran popped up, I’m not necessarily against that - but it seemed to drive the further classification of Veteran into tiers.

I always liked the US Army CIB, of course it was biased to the Infantry, (and SF), which historically had the worst end of the stick in war. However GWOT spawned the CAB down here and the resultant further issues of what is Combat.


No I don’t have a good answer, and as such I think Veteran is a fine catch all.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This is the kind of thing makes our organization look like a big penis measuring contest.

Recently I had "conversation" with an Army reserve Int Op, all the dude could talk about was Afghanistan and that he left wire, not like rest of his trade, his words not mine. Why cant I just have a DuMaurier smoke, without my wife watching, in peace ? Its friggin deer season, talk about something important like, how do you keep your scent down ? Or the forever debate of .308 V .30-06.

Medals, rank, trade badges and name tags should be all we have on our uniforms.

I hate the SSI for this very reason.

Do your job, do it well; and take pride in it. We're all cogs in the wheel, we all contribute to the battle space.

 

[Infanteer]

But the problem is in defining the level of participation that should be recognized as being worthy of special distinction. Is simply being in theatre enough? Is it being under fire?

There is no point to distinguishing between combat and war for purposes of awards. Its silly, and assigns value of one over the other.

That being said, I still find the definitions useful for catagorizing human experience. Take boxing, another duel of wills and might, as an analogy. In a boxing match, there are two men or women fighting. They are boxing. There is a raft of other people involved that make the fight work; trainers, the ref, judges, the lady with the round card. There are also a host of people involved that aren't doing boxing specific things, but simply enabling the fight to occur; concession people, the lighting guy, the ticket collectors.

They are all involved in the fight, but only the two people in the ring are boxing.

This is the kind of thing makes our organization look like a big penis measuring contest.

Recently I had "conversation" with an Army reserve Int Op, all the dude could talk about was Afghanistan and that he left wire, not like rest of his trade, his words not mine.

When you hear this, the guy or gal is the most likely candidate to have done nothing particular or interesting having "left the wire" - likely that person has some sort of self-esteem issue or something.

That being said, aren't medals and post-nominals themselves merely some sort of large appendage measuring context as well?

 

[Halifax Tar]

That being said, aren't medals and post-nominals themselves merely some sort of large appendage measuring context as well?

I was always taught your rank and trade badges and medals were akin to a visual resume.

But your not wrong.

Denis Leary's character Tommy Gavin in the series Rescue Me refused to wear any medals he was awarded/earned. While fictional maybe he was on to something.

 

[dimsum]

That being said, aren't medals and post-nominals themselves merely some sort of large appendage measuring context as well?

I was always taught your rank and trade badges and medals were akin to a visual resume.

In that case, there is justification for SSI. It shows that the person has been at sea for a while, and learned more than a few things through experience/osmosis.

I like mine just because it's unusual in my fleet

 

[Infanteer]

Denis Leary's character Tommy Gavin in the series Rescue Me refused to wear any medals he was awarded/earned. While fictional maybe he was on to something.

I had a subordinate like that once, although I think he was doing it to prove he was different or special.

I'll argue the flipside; there is also value in showing belonging and group membership by displaying artifacts unique to your sub-culture. I suppose its why tribal warriors wear such things as well, only in different forms.

 

[FSTO]

This is the kind of thing makes our organization look like a big penis measuring contest.

I hate the SSI for this very reason.

NWO Stach (Gold) is all:

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'll argue the flipside; there is also value in showing belonging and group membership by displaying artifacts unique to your sub-culture. I suppose its why tribal warriors wear such things as well, only in different forms.

We do that already, hell, the Army is full it. Look at all the different cap badges and other unit regalia that exists. Can you get more tribal ?

In that case, there is justification for SSI. It shows that the person has been at sea for a while, and learned more than a few things through experience/osmosis.

That's why we have ranks.

NWO Stach (Gold) is all:

 

[FSTO]

That's why we have ranks.

If we didn't have the SSI how can we pick out the Naval DEU wearers who continually screw up RCN customs and traditions?



Oh never mind...

 

[Furniture]

I was always taught your rank and trade badges and medals were akin to a visual resume.

But your not wrong.

Denis Leary's character Tommy Gavin in the series Rescue Me refused to wear any medals he was awarded/earned. While fictional maybe he was on to something.

That's usually a sign that "I'm more special and above recognition", it works well in a fictional story. In reality it's more likely a person who refuses to follow orders because they feel they are above them, which tends to make them a bad soldier/sailor/airhuman.

The reason we have things like badges, medals, ranks, etc., is because people want recognition for their service/achievements. The push from most people is they want more forms of recognition, not less.

People were/are judged by how worn out their combats are, how much the corduroy was worn out on their combat jacket collar, whether they have MK3s, etc.. That's how petty people are, we judged others by how worn out their collar was... Maybe badges with real measurable standards aren't a bad alternative.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If we didn't have the SSI how can we pick out the Naval DEU wearers who continually screw up RCN customs and traditions?

View attachment 74175

Oh never mind...

View attachment 74174

I am quickly coming to the conclusion the RCN needs its own Dress manual.

That's usually a sign that "I'm more special and above recognition", it works well in a fictional story. In reality it's more likely a person who refuses to follow orders because they feel they are above them, which tends to make them a bad soldier/sailor/airhuman.

The reason we have things like badges, medals, ranks, etc., is because people want recognition for their service/achievements. The push from most people is they want more forms of recognition, not less.

People were/are judged by how worn out their combats are, how much the corduroy was worn out on their combat jacket collar, whether they have MK3s, etc.. That's how petty people are, we judged others by how worn out their collar was... Maybe badges with real measurable standards aren't a bad alternative.

I suppose. If badges give people some sense of accomplishment.

 

[dimsum]

That's why we have ranks.

I wouldn't say that's a really valid way.

If you saw a PO1 (for example) you may assume they have lots of sea time, but they could be a trade that doesn't sail much, or just hasn't been in the right postings. Say, an HRA in Navy DEU posted to CA or RCAF bases for most of their career.

That's another reason why I thought the Moustache, while gaudy, does have some sort of a purpose - recognizing Command in the Gold version. It's possible to be a Cdr and not be in command. It's also possible to be a LCdr and be in command.

 

[Quirky]

The reason we have things like badges, medals, ranks, etc., is because people want recognition for their service/achievements. The push from most people is they want more forms of recognition, not less.

In my view, recognition doesn't pay the bills or mortgage. In any case, medals in the CAF these days don't mean much, you need to be in the right unit at the right time to be deployed anywhere. It doesn't signify your usefulness as a soldier, I know plenty of awesome leaders and experienced personnel with nothing more than a CD and a bar. Also, I know of a few career Cpls, not by choice, who have been chosen for deployment because they were 1 of 1 in a particular section.

 

[Furniture]

In my view, recognition doesn't pay the bills or mortgage. In any case, medals in the CAF these days don't mean much, you need to be in the right unit at the right time to be deployed anywhere. It doesn't signify your usefulness as a soldier, I know plenty of awesome leaders and experienced personnel with nothing more than a CD and a clasp. Also, I know of a few career Cpls, not by choice, who have been chosen for deployment because they were 1 of 1 in a particular section.

Medals for deployments are only one form of recognition. I also never said that badges and medals should replace or come before ensuring people are well compensated for their work.

The new SAC badge is a great example of people getting recognized for doing a job that is not covered by the traditional badges. The NWO moustaches is another example, clearly some NWOs wanted something that marked them as distinct from MSEO/CSEOs.

I'm sure there are other examples out there, but the general idea is people seem to crave more recognition.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I wouldn't say that's a really valid way.

If you saw a PO1 (for example) you may assume they have lots of sea time, but they could be a trade that doesn't sail much, or just hasn't been in the right postings. Say, an HRA in Navy DEU posted to CA or RCAF bases for most of their career.

That's another reason why I thought the Moustache, while gaudy, does have some sort of a purpose - recognizing Command in the Gold version. It's possible to be a Cdr and not be in command. It's also possible to be a LCdr and be in command.

As I have said, Rank, trade badges/accoutrements and medals.

 

[quadrapiper]

Would something SSI-esque for the aviation world seem like a good recognition option for NORAD crews?

Keep medals (stars, etc.) for things outside of normal running (valour, combat, deployments, etc.) and use alternative items for, effectively, doing an awful lot of your normal job (going to sea, flying) or standing out within the trade in an expected way (NWO stache e.g.).

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

As a former soldier, I do not see myself as a veteran. I never saw any action outside of wild barrack parties and dealing with Base Force Defense exercises or some larger summer exercises. I think of the vets as guys who have seen action, heard the sound of a bullet whizzing over their heads, smelled the air after a fire fight, or the air after firing shells in angry at some one who is able to fire back at them.

I am just a guy who worn the uniform and saw no action but happy with doing my part. I helped send the troops to Gulf War 1, and various UN operations. I am not a veteran in my eyes, but loads of respect to the troops who are.

 

[Quirky]

but the general idea is people seem to crave more recognition.

Some much more than others.

"Veteran" plate after passing basic enters the chat. Then again, it's a gov policy.

 

[eliminator]

That's where I think the "star" (as in GCS) vs "medal" (as in GSM) is not a bad line to draw. It's based on geo location - if you were in/over (under, I guess, if sub crews are involved in a future conflict) then you get the GCS. If you were deployed outside Canada, but not in that theatre specifically, you get the GSM. This is where I think there should be either a third medal, or to expand GSM to remove the "outside Canada" bit.

I've said this previously, and the article mentions it, the interesting cases would be RPAS and Cyber - they are not in the geo area but have direct effects on the AOR - whether it be launching a Hellfire from 10000 km away, or sending a virus that cripples the enemy's comms structure. If the GCS and GSM require deployment outside Canada, then those folks may never receive recognition*.

While there has been precedent (ask how many medals the LRP crews got before Op Mobile kicked off), that's not reasonable. Then again, there is always uproar in some US military circles whenever the idea of a medal for RPAS crews is announced. The USAF has the Remote Effects Campaign Medal which fits the intent.

* Yes, others don't receive recognition at this time either, like SAR crews or NORAD crews. I think they should get recognition as well, be it a SAR medal after X time or something like that.

From what I've heard, SAR and NORAD bars for the SSM have been proposed, but rejected, in the past. Although these days it wouldn't surprise me if they became a reality (...as times are a changin). Also, some sort of DOMOPs recognition is probably going to happen eventually.

As for the 'remote effects' stuff, we've already started using the SSM-EXPEDITION for a few scenarios:

-Service of CAF members deployed as Cyber Planners in Direct support of OP IMPACT to the USCYBERCOM HQ, Fort Meade, Maryland, USA.
-Service of CAF members deployed as Cyber Planners in Direct support of OP IMPACT to the USARMY CYBER HQ, Fort Gordon, Georgia, USA.
-Service of CAF members deployed to Royal Air Force Wyton, UK, as Full Motion Video (FMV) Analysts in direct support of OP IMPACT

Also of note, the UK awards its OSM-Iraq & Syria (without the Iraq & Syria Clasp) for personnel back at RAF Waddington UK and Nevada USA, supporting various deployed UAS forces. New medal awarded to recognise the changing character of warfare