What’s in a Soldier? How to Rebrand the Canadian Armed Forces

[FJAG]

... someone made a good point about the US military knowing that a vast majority of it's people aren't going to make a 20 year + career out of it.  Get in, do some cool stuff for a few years, have a chance to participate in operations that will be exciting & globally relevant, take your education money & off ya go!

One factor that might play into the above is how much more expensive college & university is in the US, compared to here.  That could be a real driving force behind young people choosing to do a stint, maybe extend, and then leave - especially folks from low income areas that only have student loans or military service as options.

:dunno: :2c:

I'm in that category. We need to make the military a viable service to country career option for our young folks (especially for reservists) with a concept whereby we fund, in part their education, employ them for a set period of time to gain experience and then also provide a funding element to help them get further education at the end of their "short" career.

Obviously with any "up-front" funding there needs to be a term of obligatory service attached and with "post service" education benefits there must be a criteria of satisfactorily completed service.

What we need is a good option for high school kids to look at which says "yup, I get some pay, some experience and an education. That makes serving worthwhile." We can then look at career development for senior NCOs and officers for those that have gotten the bug for further service.

In order for reservists, in particular, to stay on they must be able to clearly see that there is a balanced, scheduled life between their family, their civilian careers and their military ones. For the regulars there also needs to be a balance for the family. Fewer and shorter away from home career courses and fewer geographical postings are major elements in that. Over the decades the CAF has been converting more and more "could knows" and "should knows" into "must know" requirements for people to learn in order to advance. We need to reverse that trend and focus on the true essentials in order to give folks more stability. Not every private soldier needs to have a marshal's baton in his or her knapsack.

:2c:

 

[mariomike]

But someone made a good point about the US military knowing that a vast majority of it's people aren't going to make a 20 year + career out of it. 

Their civil service stepped up.

For example, to apply in NYC as a firefighter or paramedic the cut off age for civilians is prior to their 29th birthday. However, for military veterans the cut off age is prior to their 36th birthday. Active military can subtract up the amount of time you spent on duty from your actual age. The maximum you can subtract is 6 years.

For education, civilians must have a high school diploma, and at least 15 college credits. However, military vets are only required to have full-time military service with an honorable discharge.

Perhaps our emergency services might consider stepping up for veterans in a similar fashion in the future?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Brihard just posted something on FB pertaining to the OPP now doing something for Vets.  I'll let him have the honours...

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'm in that category. We need to make the military a viable service to country career option for our young folks (especially for reservists) with a concept whereby we fund, in part their education, employ them for a set period of time to gain experience and then also provide a funding element to help them get further education at the end of their "short" career.

Obviously with any "up-front" funding there needs to be a term of obligatory service attached and with "post service" education benefits there must be a criteria of satisfactorily completed service.

What we need is a good option for high school kids to look at which says "yup, I get some pay, some experience and an education. That makes serving worthwhile." We can then look at career development for senior NCOs and officers for those that have gotten the bug for further service.

In order for reservists, in particular, to stay on they must be able to clearly see that there is a balanced, scheduled life between their family, their civilian careers and their military ones. For the regulars there also needs to be a balance for the family. Fewer and shorter away from home career courses and fewer geographical postings are major elements in that. Over the decades the CAF has been converting more and more "could knows" and "should knows" into "must know" requirements for people to learn in order to advance. We need to reverse that trend and focus on the true essentials in order to give folks more stability. Not every private soldier needs to have a marshal's baton in his or her knapsack.

:2c:

I think if we did this for some trades that would be a big asset; it's really hard to get apprenticeships. Most don't translate over, but electrician is a good example where we they can get credit and go for the industrial electrician ticket. I'm sure the control techs and others probably works well too, but no reason we can't partner with colleges for a lot of the basic knowledge courses in a lot of cases then do some delta training.

 

[Underway]

One factor that might play into the above is how much more expensive college & university is in the US, compared to here.  That could be a real driving force behind young people choosing to do a stint, maybe extend, and then leave - especially folks from low income areas that only have student loans or military service as options.

Free Health Care. 

 

[FJAG]

I think if we did this for some trades that would be a big asset; it's really hard to get apprenticeships. Most don't translate over, but electrician is a good example where we they can get credit and go for the industrial electrician ticket. I'm sure the control techs and others probably works well too, but no reason we can't partner with colleges for a lot of the basic knowledge courses in a lot of cases then do some delta training.

I think that's really where we could and should make our biggest headway. The fundamentals for everything from trucker, to cook, to automotive mechanic, to law enforcement, to heavy equipment operator, to computer systems, to administration, to health services is taught at community colleges. Fund tuition for those courses then do paid summer conversion courses for military applications and you not only have trained people for a few years but individuals with the education and practical experience to get a civilian job afterward. Again, add a period of obligatory service and then make the reserves an attractive option to keep their hand in the game and make a few extra bucks.

Same-same for officers and civilian universities (if we really insist on keeping up that educated officer corps charade - we've  :deadhorse: in a different thread)

:cheers:

 

[brihard]

Brihard just posted something on FB pertaining to the OPP now doing something for Vets.  I'll let him have the honours...

Ontario public service, not OPP - however the OPP have a good reputation as a veteran-friendly police service. Basically I understood it to be that vets can now hire as if 'internal' to the provincial public service, same as we can for the feds.

I'm in that category. We need to make the military a viable service to country career option for our young folks (especially for reservists) with a concept whereby we fund, in part their education, employ them for a set period of time to gain experience and then also provide a funding element to help them get further education at the end of their "short" career.

Obviously with any "up-front" funding there needs to be a term of obligatory service attached and with "post service" education benefits there must be a criteria of satisfactorily completed service.

What we need is a good option for high school kids to look at which says "yup, I get some pay, some experience and an education. That makes serving worthwhile." We can then look at career development for senior NCOs and officers for those that have gotten the bug for further service.

In order for reservists, in particular, to stay on they must be able to clearly see that there is a balanced, scheduled life between their family, their civilian careers and their military ones. For the regulars there also needs to be a balance for the family. Fewer and shorter away from home career courses and fewer geographical postings are major elements in that. Over the decades the CAF has been converting more and more "could knows" and "should knows" into "must know" requirements for people to learn in order to advance. We need to reverse that trend and focus on the true essentials in order to give folks more stability. Not every private soldier needs to have a marshal's baton in his or her knapsack.

:2c:

Some of this is in place. The introduction of the Education Training Benefit through VAC is pretty sweet. Serve 6 years full time or equivalent, you get $40,000 for school. Do 12 years, you get $80k. I don't know if CAF recruiting is leveraging this yet, but the fact that you can do six years of service, pick up some good skills in the course of that, and then get out and take the ETB for $40k of schooling (paid for by another federal department, at that) is a pretty sweet deal.

My 14 years of so of PRes time added up to about 6 years, 4 months. Once some other stuff settles down in life I've got my eye on a pretty decent looking Master's degree, paid for by VAC.

 

[lenaitch]

Ontario public service, not OPP - however the OPP have a good reputation as a veteran-friendly police service. Basically I understood it to be that vets can now hire as if 'internal' to the provincial public service, same as we can for the feds.

One of the big obstacles in years past was pension portability, even within different plans in Ontario.  It used to be if you went from municipal to the OPP you carried two 'partial pensions' for the sum of your career (or took a buy-out), and the rules were different if your department was absorbed or you simply patched over.  There was simply no federal-provincial portability.  There are now pension portability agreements both within the various Ontario plans and between all or most provincial plans and the federal plans.  Of course actuarial gymnastics are involved.

 

[brihard]

One of the big obstacles in years past was pension portability, even within different plans in Ontario.  It used to be if you went from municipal to the OPP you carried two 'partial pensions' for the sum of your career (or took a buy-out), and the rules were different if your department was absorbed or you simply patched over.  There was simply no federal-provincial portability.  There are now pension portability agreements both within the various Ontario plans and between all or most provincial plans and the federal plans.  Of course actuarial gymnastics are involved.

Then there’s the army reserve pension that doesn’t properly transfer over to friggin’ anything.

 

[MilEME09]

Then there’s the army reserve pension that doesn’t properly transfer over to friggin’ anything.

It really is a joke, but that in my opinion is part of a larger issue of a disregard for how important a viable and attractive reserve is to the defense establishment as a whole.

Another issue I see is that if you are reg force, transfer reserve, but your trade isn't a reserve one, you get screwed really fast. Watched a Mat tech spend his reserve time as a Corporal even though he had his plq/jlc, why? Mat tech doesn't exist in the reserves so his trade and position didn't exist and thus he couldn't be promoted. Encountering the same issue trying to pull ex reg force members into the reserves.

 

[Underway]

Then there’s the army reserve pension that doesn’t properly transfer over to friggin’ anything.

Really?  Good friend of mine had his Reserve pension transfer over and add to his Waterloo Regional Police pension.  Anything that the Reg F pension transfers to the reserve one should.  Its the same pension just different calculations.

Another issue I see is that if you are reg force, transfer reserve, but your trade isn't a reserve one, you get screwed really fast. Watched a Mat tech spend his reserve time as a Corporal even though he had his plq/jlc, why? Mat tech doesn't exist in the reserves so his trade and position didn't exist and thus he couldn't be promoted. Encountering the same issue trying to pull ex reg force members into the reserves.

Yah lots of trades don't have reserve options.  Nav Res just created Naval Engineering placeholders instead of the GSO switch.  You can still be promoted as a GSO but I've no idea if you can advance in your career as a CSE for example.

 

[mariomike]

The fundamentals for everything from trucker, to cook, to automotive mechanic, to law enforcement, to heavy equipment operator, to computer systems, to administration, to health services is taught at community colleges. Fund tuition for those courses then do paid summer conversion courses for military applications and you not only have trained people for a few years but individuals with the education and practical experience to get a civilian job afterward.

For QL5 Med Tech to Primary Care Paramedic ( Ontario PCP ),
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/130059/post-1566031.html#msg1566031

Medics requiring to maintain a license 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/107868/post-1180343.html#msg1180343

 

[MilEME09]

Yah lots of trades don't have reserve options.  Nav Res just created Naval Engineering placeholders instead of the GSO switch.  You can still be promoted as a GSO but I've no idea if you can advance in your career as a CSE for example.

I get it if they aren't qualified but a fully qualified soldier should be able to just go to the PRes from the regs and keep their trade.

 

[Eaglelord17]

So I just thought of a potential way for them to attract recruits. Imagine if they as part of a signing bonus wiped out a applicants student debt in exchange for 'x' years served (would vary depending on the overall amount involved). We pay people to go to college or university, why not skip the steps of having them go on our dime and just kill whatever expenses are left at the end? It would even be cheaper than something like NCM-SEP or ROTP because you aren't paying their salary well they are attending school and you don't have to worry about the person dropping out as they already would have passed. Plenty of people who finish university with 40-80k debt at the end and not very good job prospects, giving them a opportunity to instantly make it disappear would be pretty tempting.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So I just thought of a potential way for them to attract recruits. Imagine if they as part of a signing bonus wiped out a applicants student debt in exchange for 'x' years served (would vary depending on the overall amount involved). We pay people to go to college or university, why not skip the steps of having them go on our dime and just kill whatever expenses are left at the end? It would even be cheaper than something like NCM-SEP or ROTP because you aren't paying their salary well they are attending school and you don't have to worry about the person dropping out as they already would have passed. Plenty of people who finish university with 40-80k debt at the end and not very good job prospects, giving them a opportunity to instantly make it disappear would be pretty tempting.

Bribery is a lousy way to incent self-sacrifice on the scale and consistency required from, say, a rifleman in an Infantry Platoon.

For that you need to pull out the really big guns, like, you know, self-esteem.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/building-self-esteem/

 

[stoker dave]

Slightly off topic... .but when I was leaving Reg F after my service, I recall there was a line on a form that said "Tick here if you wish to transfer to the reserves" or something like that.

I didn't know much about the reserves and didn't tick the box.  I gave it no more thought than that. 

Perhaps the reserves could to a bit better job of selling themselves to people leaving to try to bring over Reg F people that are leaving. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

So I just thought of a potential way for them to attract recruits. Imagine if they as part of a signing bonus wiped out a applicants student debt in exchange for 'x' years served (would vary depending on the overall amount involved). We pay people to go to college or university, why not skip the steps of having them go on our dime and just kill whatever expenses are left at the end? It would even be cheaper than something like NCM-SEP or ROTP because you aren't paying their salary well they are attending school and you don't have to worry about the person dropping out as they already would have passed. Plenty of people who finish university with 40-80k debt at the end and not very good job prospects, giving them a opportunity to instantly make it disappear would be pretty tempting.

We've done this on occasion; that was actually in place when I joined. It paid out partially when you finished basic then got the remainder at some point later in the training (maybe 2 years later?). Not actually why I joined, but wasn't going to say no. Didn't hurt anything though, and was nice to have wiped out my small student loan and otherwise get started on a down payment for a home.

Thought they had lost my application or something though as it took over a year before I heard anything back though, so was in the process for getting ready to go teach english overseas when they finally got in touch with me, did some navy screening, then started basic a few months later.

 

[mariomike]

https://psychcentral.com/lib/building-self-esteem/

Can't put a price on that. I give the credit to our Sergeants.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Slightly off topic... .but when I was leaving Reg F after my service, I recall there was a line on a form that said "Tick here if you wish to transfer to the reserves" or something like that.

I didn't know much about the reserves and didn't tick the box.  I gave it no more thought than that. 

Perhaps the reserves could to a bit better job of selling themselves to people leaving to try to bring over Reg F people that are leaving.

Great observation. Sadly, the CAF has ensured no one will want to do that now because the VAC Education grant is not available to anyone who stays in the CAF, in any capacity, following retirement.

I've spoken to several 40/50 year old-ish serving members who considered staying on in the reserves following retirement, but the $40k/ $80k payouts were just too tempting.

'Et tu Brute?'

 

[Ostrozac]

I get it if they aren't qualified but a fully qualified soldier should be able to just go to the PRes from the regs and keep their trade.

That's a bit of a fundamental question, though, isn't it? Is a reserve unit primarily a collection of individual augmentees, or is it primarily a tactical unit with a clearly defined role within it's Corps/Branch? And I've seen units flip-flop over that question over the years. When I was in the reserves, my city had armour and infantry units, so of course (what were the odds?) we seemed to regularly have ex-Reg Force artillerymen (MBdr, Sgt) release in the local area wanting to do reserve service, but we'd have to bust them to Corporal, even though we had a desperate shortage of NCOs. A friend of mine (ex-Reg Force, land DEU but purple MOSID) was told by his local Army Reserve unit that they weren't interested in him as a Captain unless he OT'd to Infantry Officer -- he instead joined the Naval Reserve, who had less use for his AOC/ATOC but were happy to employ him as a sea officer, general purpose, once he had a few short top-up courses. I've heard reports that some army reserve units are much more flexible, happily employing on Class A trained members from whatever occupation walks through their doors.

Personally, I lean towards the flexible approach -- if you have an RCEME MWO or an Int Major, both with 25 years experience, and they want to do Class A in their home town -- jump all over them even if they don't happen to match the infantry/armour/artillery flavour of the local reserve unit.