War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[Jungle]

In another thread, Edward Campbell seemed surprised that there were some anglophobe Officers in the R22R in the 70s... In the last few days, it is apparent that there are francophobes not only in our Army today, but on this site as well. Some people are being unreasonnable here. I wonder how a thread on the CWM has turned, again, into a French-Canadian bashing party...  : I thought we were beyond that at least on this site.
The Plains of Abraham are administered by the Federal govt. I think they are well-kept, and I don't see a problem with fitness or cultural activities taking place there. It is actually surprising that the whole park was preserved; imagine it's real estate value, in the heart of Québec City and overlooking the St-Lawrence river ??
The Citadelle was falling apart a few years ago; some people were appalled that the govt was letting that happen. Now, some here are appalled that it is not finished... If they didn't work on it, it would be nothing but ruins in a few years. Also, it had to be modernised to provide safe access to pedestrians. Eversince it was built, the only access to enter the Citadelle was a single-lane chicane-type entrance for both pedestrians and motor vehicles; they are now making a separate pedestrian entrance.

 

[Springroll]

When we stayed in Quebec City last year, we were able to see the The Plains of Abraham from our hotel room(Loews le Concorde) and I was in awe of the view and beauty. I think they have done a fine job.

Now bringing this back onto topic, my mother in law was able to take her design students on a tour of the CWM before it was opened, and were able to have the tour done by the designer of the facility. Everything in there has a significant reason to it, from the placemernt of a painting, to the way the sun hits the windows on Nov 11th at 11am(yes, they designed that into it!). There are many more things about the design that she told us about, but I can't remember them all. One that does stick out is the bathrooms. The designer originally had incorporated the war theme into the bathrooms, but they were not approved and as a result, when someone goes into the bathrooms, the effects of the museum is lost(they have basic bathrooms now). If I recall correctly, the design for the bathrooms had red and green in there to represent blood and grass, a common sight in the WW's and such.

My mother in law strongly suggested that the next time we go to Ottawa that we make the stop(we saw the old one a few years back) and to make sure we brought tissues, since it is a very moving exhibit. The designer wanted to make sure that every aspect of war was in there, the good, the bad, and the ugly. War should not be made to look pretty, because it isn't.

 

[geo]

I agree whole heartedly with you Jungle,

Spent some time in Valcatraz with 5Bde over the last month. As a matter of fact there are a large number of Anglophone officers within the ranks of the R22R, 5CER, 12RBC & 5SSG.  Some are from "down home" while others are from Ont & MB... all are quite happy and valued members of their Reg'ts. (would presume that 5RALC similar conditions exist).

WRT the speedos on the Plains.... sorry - forgot to stipulate dress code. It is one of the City's major green spaces and a magnet to the entire population. It's paths and walkways attract all sorts. The Gov't built & maintained a prison on it's grounds (La petite Bastille) - this facility was decommissioned & is now a youth hostel..... teenagers and young adults are not always the most respectful - at the best of times.

WRT the Citadelle. Lovely facility any way you slice & dice it. Officers & SR NCOs mess & quarters are exceptional BUT.... when you get down to it, old fortresses are not really the ideal facilities for active army battalions. Nevertheless - R22R continue to maintain their RHQ there.

 

[Infanteer]

In another thread, Edward Campbell seemed surprised that there were some anglophobe Officers in the R22R in the 70s... In the last few days, it is apparent that there are francophobes not only in our Army today, but on this site as well. Some people are being unreasonnable here. I wonder how a thread on the CWM has turned, again, into a French-Canadian bashing party...   : I thought we were beyond that at least on this site.

He's right, we're hammering on the War Museum here - let's stay on topic....

 

[geo]

Seen!

 

[KevinB]

Jungle - excellent point, I'm kind of embarrased that I started it.

Secondly I think to be a CANADIAN one is not British or French -- BUT... class: CANADIAN.

Both cultures created who we are.


I do wish for a little more accuracy in reporting - especially when they put a bust of me up with a VC 

 

[pronto]

Yup right you are, - sorry dudes and dudettes.

 

[jmacleod]

Met a lot of Anglophone officers from the R22R at RA Park Mess over the years in Halifax NS -
DND policy probably dictates a number in each Francophone unit - how could it be otherwise in
a military which is officially bi-lingual? O'Carroll's was a favourite spot for military visitors to Halifax
over the years - on the waterfront. The original building was the HQ of Lord Amherst where
the attack on Quebec was planned (Amherst,Wolfe, Monckton, Murray,Townshend) there was
a plaque on the leased structure (owned by the Feds) denoting this, but the lessor, staunch
IRA (Dublin) removed it (for a while at least) - interesting footnote to surrender of the French
in Quebec to the British Forces - French were represented by James Johnstone Chevelier de Johnston
who had served Charles Edward Stuart at Culloden Moor, fought at Louisbourg and Quebec and
replied to the Terms of surrender in Gaelic, since the CO Fraser Highlanders representing the Brits
as the senior Field Officer after Wolfe's death, and not fluent in English or French, knew that he
could converse with Johnston in Gaelic. French in Quebec were defeated essentially by mercenaries
from Scottish Highlands. MacLeod

 

[geo]

McLeod,

historical note noted - let's discuss the war museum on this thread.
if warranted - we can discuss franco & anglo composition of the CF in a new thread.

Chimo!

 

[jmacleod]

You are right, of course. There are a lot of complaints about the CWM throughout Canada
-as all of you are aware - the impression I get, is that the CWM and the Canadian Museum
of Civilization are "right" and everbody else, which is a considerable spectrum, are "wrong"
- no surprise to me. MacLeod

 

[Springroll]

You are right, of course. There are a lot of complaints about the CWM throughout Canada

What exactly are the complaints about the CWM?

 

[jmacleod]

I guess you don't read the papers. MacLeod

 

[Springroll]

Nope...I don't read the papers.
They are too biased and full of inaccurate information.

 

[geo]

McLeod,
While I appreciate your frustration with some of our government's moves and decisions; do you have any particular "for instances" to discuss.
Generalised gratuitous statements don't give us much meat on which to discuss

 

[the 48th regulator]

What exactly are the complaints about the CWM?

A good start is reading this thread from the beginning.  It will give yousome idea from the Canadians that post here.

dileas

tess

 

[Springroll]

Well, I am sure that jmacleod was referring to what has been in the papers, that is why I asked.
I have read at least half the thread(was offline yesterday so I couldn't finish it) but will be finishing it in a bit, after I p/u my hubby.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Very good,

You will also find quite a bit of what jmacleod is referring to, within the threads regarding what was in the papers, as well as our concerns.

dileas

tess

 

[jmacleod]

Springroll - My apologies - I misunderstood. There have been complaints about the paintings of
former Aboriginal Canadian soldiers in the CWM, from the CEO Canadian War Amps and Journalist
Peter Worthington, Sun Newspapers which are considered demeaning and racist. Korean Veterans
are concerned about statements focused on their incidence of venereal disease in Korea, Pacific
War veterans are concerned about a preceived lack of information about their wartime activities,
there is focus on the fact that the CWM refers to the NorthWest Rebellion as the North West
"Resistance" - there are perhaps others - all reported in the media throughout Canada. The
Aboriginal and Metis Veterans of Canada are particularly concerned, since none of them, they report
were invited to the official  opening of the Museum,and the paintings mentioned earlier, which
a number of people feel should not be in the facility; they serve no purpose other than to create
controversy. MacLeod

 

[Infanteer]

...all which is discussed in detail in this thread.

 

[jmacleod]

The complaints referred to have been more than simply discussed on this Forum - our opinions
pro and con are nothing more than that, opinions, but the organizations involved have complained
to several Federal cabinet ministers I understand - one Minister for sure is Hon. Andy Scott MP,
Fredericton NB, Minister of Aboriginal Affairs - important player, sits in the Cabinet inner circle
and is a member of the planning and priorities committee - Minister Frulla MP, Quebec, Canadian
Heritage portfolio and perhaps one or two others. The organizations, like War Amps and the
Sun Group of newspapers have considerable clout as well. CWM would be better off simply to
remove the controversial Brown and Matchee paintings, considered by many, racist and demeaning.
MacLeod