War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[pronto]

Tell ya what Mr. Monkhouse. I have been to the museum a couple of times. I am not impressed with the tone, but am impressed with the building and it is nice to finally see some decent exhibition space. I am qualified to make similar judgements to Mr. MacLeod. (PM me if you want to know more). The museum misses its mark in a number of areas. The nasty attention paid to the airborne debacle is just an example. This thread is a bit tiresome, and I have made some comments similar to this in the past, but what the hey.....

I feel that the museum's staff have shown some poor judgement, and been offensive to some elements of the military. I feel that this is a result of getting input from the political and intellectual elite, rather than "polling" the rank and file (as it were). The representatives (self-appointed and otherwise) of the CWM indulge in a never-ending justification of ther decisions rather than admitting poor judgement, errors or even that others may have a point. Remember, if you disallow that someone else has an opinion or even feelings on a topic, then you are devaluing their position, and you really have no basis for congress. The louder someone complains about the CWM,  the more entrenched (sorry... couldn't resist) the positions become.

The long list of forgotten items, missed research, offensive exhibits, false stats, etc. etc. is merely getting longer. I think that ordering Mr. MacLeod to "stay in his lane" is a little offensive in an opinion board which is admittedly just that - a board for exchanging opinions. I have exchanged emails with Mr. MacLeod and his bona fides prove impressive. His opinion is no less valid than ours, and perhaps, given his background and associates, even a little more valid.

I was blessed to meet S/L Birchall. The saviour of Ceylon. An amazing, kind and generous man. His incredible exploits belong in pride of place, not Kyle Brown and Clay Matchee (or, in my opinion - Romeo Dallaire). That was a really good point, Mr. MacLeod. An exhibit on Mr Birchall should be prominent.

Mr. MacLeod - telling Mr. Monkhouse to "go work there" will merely inflame him. (Not really worthy of you either)... Besides, I personally would not want to trade Merrickville for Sodom-on-the-Ottawa!!!

The upshot, I think is that there will always be complaints about a public institution run by flawed human beings. We need to make them better. I would really like some suggestions on how to get the CWM to listen, react and stop negating others opinions. Hell I am getting tired of them petulantly dropping out of debates and information exchanges when they don't hear total agreement.

Ah well.... Have a good one out there in Halifax and Merrickville - they're better than Ottawa!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I have exchanged emails with Mr. MacLeod and his bona fides prove impressive. His opinion is no less valid than ours, and perhaps, given his background and associates, even a little more valid.

Which I'd like him to establish and be open about. I get a queasy feeling when people keep avoiding being open about this sort of thing. He's a name dropper extrordinairre, but unless he can prove a real connection to these people, he's a poser. People will, understandably, get riled and concentric on points and miss the big picture. I think if a person is posting, seemingly acting as the spokesman, for a group, we're entitled to know who they are, the nature of their business, and what the agenda is.

 

[jmacleod]

My associates and I are long established (over thirty years) in the Technology and Aerospace Sector
-we are currently based in Moncton NB - we have contractural agreements with many associated
consultants, most of who are part time, and engaged in other, for the most part academic pursuits
-some are based in Ottawa, Halifax, London UK and the United States. We are all well over 70
years old, we have no hidden agenda, but know far more about government, and aerospace
projects than I care to discuss. But the primary interest in the "new" Canadian War Museum are
personal and shared with Mr. Chadderton, Worthington and others not in the public eye. I sign
my name to all posts, and I say exactly what I think. I remember the former Military Museum in
Ottawa - a national disgrace. I remember taliking with former Heritage Minister Copps about the
proposed "new" Canadian War Museum - I could not believe the mediocrity of the design, which
from a technical vierwpoint will have a number of functional problems. But my focus, along with
Mr. Chadderton and Mr. Worthington, plus others I have or have not mentioned in the poor quality
of presentations to the public, and the arrogance and lack of empathy by the bureaucrats who
run the place. It does not matter that you agree or disagree with me in the least. I am also not
used to dealing with people who do not sign their names - I do not know or care what your
background is, but it cannot not match mine or as you and Monkhose put it our "associates"MacLeod

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It does not matter that you agree or disagree with me in the least. I am also not
used to dealing with people who do not sign their names - I do not know or care what your
background is, but it cannot not match mine or as you and Monkhose put it our "associates"MacLeod

Well excuse me for being a mere mortal and trying to understand exactly where your coming from. I guess I just didn't realise the mist that was landing on me was really piss from some lofty perch. While you say your concerns are personal, the gist of your posts "seem" otherwise. I only wished to clarify. And as far as agreeing or not, I could care less also. I give the same amount of stature to the man on the street as I do to self appointed pseudo intellectuals who believe they deserve something extra.

Dave Winterburn

 

[jmacleod]

Thanks Dave.  MacLeod

 

[sussex11]

I guess I'm the CWM rep who drops out from the thread when someone disagrees. Well, I'm not a CWM rep, but I do know bias and prejudice when I see it, and I take it the answer to the thrice asked question is that J. MacLeod has not been to the new building. I also know a bit about the Burma display.
  The vets' association president went through the new CWM months ago before the caption was in and wrote complaining that they had been left out. In fact, he simply missed it entirely--which is easy to do because the signage wasn't very good at the beginning. (There--I can be critical!) Then CWM replied to list the artifacts on display at the time of his visit, which included a 3'x3' piece of wreckage from the recovered Dakota, a huge photo, several captions and smaller pictures, and artifacts recovered from the wreckage, but he said that that was not enough. The Burma Vets' president then raised the 'Pacific' vs 'Far East' issue, which is debatable, but which CWM agreed to change in any case; there are now two text blocks, one on 'the war against Japan', and the other simply titled 'Burma'. Both of those were there on May 8, but of course no one mentions that. When Strobel of the Sun phoned CWM, he was likely surprised to find that the Museum actually had a display on Burma and that the wreckage was so big, but by that time of course his jeremiad had already been written, so he went with a pretty hackneyed few references, worthy of Worthington's columns (who also has not visited the new CWM) himself. The vets, of course, told him that CWM had nothing at all on Burma.
    There's another point. The CWM is big, but there's a lot of history to cover. Not every campaign, not every battalion, ship, or squadron will be featured or even mentioned. You can't get everything in. Yes, Burma was important but only 5 in every thousand Canadian servicemen in WW2 served in that campaign. Frankly, instead of complaining that there isn't enough coverage of their part of the war, Burma vets should be pleased.
  Jack Granatstein (see, I even signed my name. And I have been to the new CWM.)
 

 

[the 48th regulator]

I am also not
used to dealing with people who do not sign their names - I do not know or care what your
background is, but it cannot not match mine or as you and Monkhose put it our "associates"MacLeod

Unfair shot Mr. MacLeod,

You continue to make some fairly negative comments regarding the museum.  Fair enough.  But it is you that alludes to the "Associates", what is this a Dan Brown Novel??  I do not agree with what I have heard or read that is at the museum, I trust my comrades, as you, to help me understand the museum.  Will I visit?  Hell ya, yet I was on a stance to boycott it.  I did not appreciate some of the concepts presented (the paintings, the black mark on the Korean vets).  But I let everyone understand who I am and where I stand.  You on the other had allude to associates and present a very scary agenda.  I am not on side with that.

I am John Tescione.

dileas

tess

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thanks Jack,

I have not been myself, which is why I don't get into the discussions on the contents. However, it is refreshing to see someone that is involved, and been there, come here and give plain, unbiased answers that don't require "An Idiot's Guide to Parlimentary Doublespeak"

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Pronto,
The museum misses its mark in a number of areas. The nasty attention paid to the airborne debacle is just an example

...actually if one know nothing of the, totally agreed debacle, I don't think one would leave the museum knowing anything more about it.
The paintings don't really have much info with them, of course there is not enough info with most things but, I'm told signage is a work in progress.

Pronto,
The fact that you have been there does give you more authourity to post your negatives about the museum, in fact I will be more than happy to read your thoughts, however all jmaceod has done is cast dispersions from afar,.... over and over and.........

Also, I agree with you on the Merrickville thing, however all good things come to an end, moving back to the south of Ontario in a few weeks. :crybaby:

 

[jmacleod]

My main focus is to change the Canadian War Museum for the better, because the history (the
story) of the Canadian Military deserves better. For people who support the concept of the facility
I am on your side - but I have to question the attitude of public employees who have a mind
set based on ignorance, and refuse to listen or accept criticsm - and at 75, I am weary of arrogant
patronizing bureaucrats. The attitude of the Canadian Museum of Civilization, and the Canadian
War Museum is not, for instance like that of those volunteers who staff the famed Canadian
Warplane Heritage Museum at Mount Hope, or the British staff of the RAF Museum at Duxford
UK, and many many others I am familier with - there has to be a great degree of empathy with
the Canadian military, and a real, not a text book understanding of the complexities of Canada's
historic contributions to the Wars, fit for discussion with the wide variety of vistors to this
public place. MacLeod

 

[the 48th regulator]

and you are also weary of us, the troops, the general public? 

You stated;

I do not know or care what your
background is

On a site Mike Bobbitt dedicates to the troops.  This tells me you are not fighting for us the troops.  For us as Canadians.  You are fighting for your self and your own agenda to be recognized, along with your associates.

Please stop using the thread I started as some sort of voice box for your mission to attack;

public employees who have a mind
set based on ignorance, and refuse to listen or accept criticism - and at 75, I am weary of arrogant
patronizing bureaucrats

dileas

tess

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from jmacleod,
I do not know or care what your
background is, but it cannot not match mine or as you and Monkhose put it our "associates"

Well now, missed that.....background?  Well I guess ya got me, just Joe Average Canadian from a loving family to Joe Average Canadian Father who just strives to be the same loving parents that mine were.
No aspirations except for that...... gee, I'm so ashamed..... :

 

[jmacleod]

Good for you Bruce. MacLeod

 

[Art Johnson]

And the discussion goes on, the CWM is under the control of a bunch of PCPs who have no intention of listening to the complaints of Veterans:

http://torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2005/08/19/1179026.html

 

[Armymedic]

If "they" won't listen to people of the likes of Mr. Petit, what chances do we ordinary citizens and serving soldiers have of changing the ways things are displayed?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Much as I have made my disdain for the Kyle Brown painting be heard, it is a low blow bringing the race card into it.
Got a news flash for ya Worthington, they were both Native........and has zero bearing on the fine service of other serving or retired Native soldiers.

I feel like Bill Murray,...."I've been slimed".

Edit: been there yet Armymedic?

 

[Lance Wiebe]

I did wander through the museum on my drive to Thunder Bay. 

The museum is, in terms of layout and sheer size, far superior to the old museum.  They also let me and my family in for free (I'm starting to think that people think I'm older than I really am...... )

I liked the vehicle displays, now that they have room for them.  I liked the weapon displays.

I disliked things being labelled wrong, for example, a M1911 being called a colt 45 revolver in the display.  I disliked the fact that all of the interactive displays were broken.  I disliked the fact that the place had several burnt out lights, and wasn't all that clean.

It seems to me that so much money was spent on the building, that no money was put aside for routine maintenance and repairs.

As for the paintings, wrong place, wrong setting.  Sorry guys, I just did not buy the "warts and all" argument.  If that was the case, then there should be a seperate wing showing the warts.  Including the awarding of contracts to bail out companies in trouble (Western Star & Bombardier come immediately to mind).  The so-called "warts" are only in one portion of the museum, perhaps because the museum paid a huge  amount of money for the paintings, for whatever reason.  There is no paintings showing Canadians being tortured and maltreated by the Japanese.  Lousy arguments........

 

[Armymedic]

Edit: been there yet Armymedic?

No, I have only been home just under 2 weeks. Definitely want to before the kids go back to school.

 

[lahr_brat]

Hi,

Not sure if this is the proper forum .

Just visited the CWM with my dad who is a Korean Vet so we got in free, yea!!!!!!

I always thought it was the North West Rebellion.  I guess "Rebellion" is too aggressive for our politically correct politicians.  Since when was it ever a "Resistance"????  What is next the First and Second "Great Misunderstandings".

What are your thoughts on the way history is being taught these days.  I personally am shocked and appaulled.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

What are your thoughts on the way history is being taught these days.   I personally am shocked and appaulled.

I'm skipping the easy joke here.

I found it interesting on the weekend when out for a jeep ride that I was driving past Louis Riel Junior High School.  It never occured to me before, but my companion pointed out the name and asked "wasn't he hanged as a traitor?"

And yet, there is the school named for him, not in Manitoba, but in Calgary.  Odd choice?