War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[Springroll]

Does anyone have a link to these two particular paintings??

 

[the 48th regulator]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30345.0.html


They are posted within the thread, as I stated before, read it from beginning and you will get all the answers to the questions that you are asking


dileas

tess

 

[Springroll]

For those that are curious what page the paintings are on, they are on page 19.

The first painting doesn't look too bad, but the second one is a little off. I was expecting worse though.

I don't believe that they should be removed from the walls of the CWM.
Art is a very personal thing, and what one person finds disturbing, another will find intriguing or will induce feelings or thoughts.
The point of a museum is not to show only the good aspects, but also the trials and tribulations.

 

[George Wallace]

The point of a museum is not to show only the good aspects, but also the trials and tribulations.

I think the act of murder is not in the catagory of "trials and tribulations".

To gloryfiy or display a criminal act as such as this has a better home in the "Prison Museum" down in Kingston.

 

[Kat Stevens]

The paintings in question don't represent trials and tribulations.  They represent a reprehensible act by a very small group of mentally unstable individuals.  An act that led ultimately to the disgrace and dimantling of an honourable and justifiably proud Regiment.

Kat

 

[Springroll]

Better way to word it rather than trials and tribulations... The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

War is not nice. It is not all roses and gardens. People are killed.
I am sure there has been more than just that incident where our troops have behaved disgracefully.

I still feel the paintings should stay.
Too take them down would be to censor the realities of war.
As sad as the situation was, the kid was stealing from the base, was caught, and was wronglyfully treated by a few soldiers.

If someone stole from you, what would you do if you caught them?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Better way to word it rather than trials and tribulations... The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

War is not nice. It is not all roses and gardens. People are killed.
I am sure there has been more than just that incident where our troops have behaved disgracefully.

I still feel the paintings should stay.
Too take them down would be to censor the realities of war.
As sad as the situation was, the kid was stealing from the base, was caught, and was wronglyfully treated by a few soldiers.

If someone stole from you, what would you do if you caught them?

And as previously in this thread I stated,  my reaction to your statement would be the same as before,

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30345/post-225626.html#msg225626

No, I have not visited the new museum, you are right.  As a veteran, as Art stated, I trust the judgment of my fellow compatriots.  I for one am upset in the fact that two paintings are displayed regarding a very despicable part of our history.  I am not an art critic, but please explain why we need to see an artist's rendition of a photograph done in a new medium (literally a copy) and some sort of far out abstract painting of the other culprit??  What is next, a portrait of Maj. Harry Schmidt pressing the trigger on the laser guided bomb? Or, how about a nice painting of Maj.William Umbach juggling four balls representing the souls of the fallen.

dileas

tess

 

[George Wallace]

Springroll

Next time you do something that may not fall under the good graces of the Law, and someone takes a picture of you in the act, then paints a painting from that image (basically a reproduction of the photo in oil and canvas) and puts it up in the "Museum of Military Spouses" for all to see in perpetituity, then we will all see where you are coming from.  If you can live with shaming all Military Spouses who have been before you, those of current Serving Members, and those to come, then do so.  Until then it may help to look more deeply into what it means for your hubby to wear his uniform and serve his country.

 

[Armymedic]

edited to remove comments which, like the ones Springroll posted above, do nothing to add to the conversation.

 

[aesop081]

War is not nice. It is not all roses and gardens. People are killed.

Well thank you for enlightening us on the subject.  I bow to your infinite experience.

As sad as the situation was, the kid was stealing from the base, was caught, and was wronglyfully treated by a few soldiers.

Of course, you were there right ?

I am sure there has been more than just that incident where our troops have behaved disgracefully.

Well, again, thank you.  Of course you have the right to make alegations without basis.

 

[Slim]

Springroll

Please stop posting in this thread for now.

You don't see what the others are trying to say. What you're doing is really upsetting a whole bunch of people for nothing, some of whom were there, on the ground, in Africa when this happened. For them its not a "painting" but a forced view of events that never should have taken place.

To them you are merely rubbing their wounds (and they have them!) with salt.

Try listening instead of forcing you opinion on others.

You may find that you could learn alot.

Slim
STAFF

 

[Springroll]

I am sure there are several, but remember what side of the fence you are on in this discussion. You are knocking on a hornets nest with those statements. Remeber, War Crimes are declared and tried by the winners of the conflict.

People on this site helped make the history that is portrayed in the CWM. For us it is personal. We (the greater we, not just me) don't like how the bad has prominance over the greater good.

My family also helped to make the history that is portrayed in the CWM and I really do not feel that I have said anything wrong, and do not intend to "disgrace" anyone. It is a shame that the few bad apples in the bunch screwed it up for the rest of them, but that is how society is, regardless of it being military or not.

I do agree that I also do not like "how the bad has prominance over the greater good", but by what I have been told by my mother in law about the museum, the majority of it portrays the CF, past and present, in a good light, and not a bad one.

I will not take back my opinion about the paintings, but I do understand where all of you are coming from and will just leave it at that.  

Edited to add:
I am sorry if my opinion has upset anyone. It was not my intention to.

 

[Slim]

", but by what I have been told by my mother in law

I asked you nicely...

You just don't get it do you.

Your mother in law told you...

There are people here who were THERE!

Stop pushing their buttons needlessly. I have a tremendous amount of respect for those who were in that horrible place, trying to do an impossible job.

What do they get...One rude housewife, who hasn't served a day, telling them off.

BTW I was also made privilage to the letter you wrote a wounded veteran from this site. Basically saying his sacrifice does not matter.

THIS IS YOUR LAST WARNING.

One more thing and I will ban you from Army.Ca for good.

Enough is enough

Slim
STAFF

 

[Kat Stevens]

May I suggest a 24-48 hour cooling off on this topic?  It's degenerated rapidly into a poo flinging bout in a monkey cage....

Kat

 

[muskrat89]

Agreed.

I'm going to go back and clean some of this up. MD, I'm going to delete your post because springroll's angst was directed at me, not slim.. if that makes sense  ???

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Agreed.

I'm going to go back and clean some of this up. MD, I'm going to delete your post because springroll's angst was directed at me, not slim.. if that makes sense   ???

No worries.  Springroll, I had some comments about your sewing machine but the thread was locked - I have a similar machine - PM me and I'll send you some info.

 

[McG]

May I suggest a 24-48 hour cooling off on this topic?  It's degenerated rapidly into a poo flinging bout in a monkey cage....

Kat

It seems we need at least the 24 hrs for this one. Time out (again).

 

[McG]

I don't believe that they should be removed from the walls of the CWM.
Art is a very personal thing, and what one person finds disturbing, another will find intriguing or will induce feelings or thoughts.

Should the CWM be hanging art that requires obscure emotional interpretation in order to decipher, or should CWM art be limited to items that clearly show visitors what it was like to have been present through periods of our nations military history?   Keep in mind, the CWM is an historical museum & not an art museum (which does exist in another building of the National Capitol Region).

As I see it, the murder in Somalia belongs in the museum.   Not because it was reflective of any unit or the military as a whole, but because of the impact it had on public perceptions and several major changes to the military over the following years.   But, I don't think the paintings show that, nor do they give viewers a feeling for what it was like to have been a part of that Somalia mission.

 

[TCBF]

"Art is not a mirror - Art is a hammer."

Tom

I will now add the full quote:

"Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it."

Bertolt Brecht (1898-1956), German playwright.

 

[Art Johnson]

There is a political bent to the inclusion of these paintings in the CWM. Jack Granatstien mentioned it in one of his posts and I had read it in a Newsletter. The Friends of the Canadian War Museum provided the funds to purchase these paintings. The PCPs took over the direction of the Friends some years ago and intend to see that the CWM is run according to their PC view of things. They have attempted to change the name of the CWM before and they will keep at it until they get their way.

I will be resigning from the Friends and I do not intend to visit the new CWM nor will I be sending them anymore donations. It is my intention to concentrate my efforts on the museums of the two regiments that I served in.

Cheers

Art J.