War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]
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Infanteer said:
I have visited twice now, once in company with some army.ca folks, once on my own. During both visits I exchanged a few words with other visitors â “ including some retired members and some Korea and WWII veterans.
I am sure that some veterans are p!ssed off; others, including all the ones I met in the CWM, are, like me, mildly disappointed with some bits â “ not big bits, either â “ and hope (and trust) that the scholars who run the place will make improvements as time and money permit.
I need to reiterate that the CWM does not belong to the veterans â “ neither the old or the young ones. Its mission is to educate. History, as I have said, is always being revised by everyone, not just Jack Grantastein, Niall Ferguson and Cliff Chatterton. Museums reflect the latest revision, that's all; and that's all we can and should expect.
What should be of concern is that the staff of the CWM posted and displayed statistics of the
veneral disease rates of Canadian soldiers serving in the 25th Infantry Brigade in Korea - but the
statistics were based on a source named as "Jacket Coates" quoting the War Diary of 2PPCLI
-but there is and never was a soldier, or indeed a real person called "Jacket Coates" . The
character was created by Lt.Col. Herb Woods CO 2PPCLI in his work of fiction "The Private
War of Jacket Coates" - Vince Courtenay, a Korea vet, and publisher Koreavetnews, says
"the statistic is disgusting, false and maligns every soldier who served" Source is Peter Worthington
Toronto Sun 10 July 2005 article "VD Stats From Novel" - Worthington served as an officer in
2PPCLI in Korea - he is also an outstanding Journalist. We are concerned with the quality of the
CWM, and are advocating change, before the CWM becomes the "Canadian Peace Museum".
MacLeod
veneral disease rates of Canadian soldiers serving in the 25th Infantry Brigade in Korea - but the
statistics were based on a source named as "Jacket Coates" quoting the War Diary of 2PPCLI
-but there is and never was a soldier, or indeed a real person called "Jacket Coates" . The
character was created by Lt.Col. Herb Woods CO 2PPCLI in his work of fiction "The Private
War of Jacket Coates" - Vince Courtenay, a Korea vet, and publisher Koreavetnews, says
"the statistic is disgusting, false and maligns every soldier who served" Source is Peter Worthington
Toronto Sun 10 July 2005 article "VD Stats From Novel" - Worthington served as an officer in
2PPCLI in Korea - he is also an outstanding Journalist. We are concerned with the quality of the
CWM, and are advocating change, before the CWM becomes the "Canadian Peace Museum".
MacLeod
- Reaction score
- 5,472
- Points
- 1,260
jmacleod said:
Good! We should all be concerned about the quality of all our museums.
All Canadians have a perfect right to advocate whatever they want â “ others have an equal right to advocate just the opposite, and governments have duties to listen, consider and, eventually, act in the broad public interest.
I am a wee bit perplexed about how people who have yet to visit the museum will comment, with even the tiniest hint of credibility, on what it is, or is not doing poorly or well. I am confident, however, that many Canadians will do just that â “ nothing ever prevents citizens from riding their hobby horses off in all directions. I am equally confident that the Museum's Board will give all these inputs all the consideration they deserve.
- Reaction score
- 6,274
- Points
- 1,360
Well since the family has gone for a couple of days, I think its time for me to go back tomorrow and re-tour without the [however wonderful] distractions I had last time.
Edward?........Mike?.....
EDIT:..sorry jmacleod, I didn't see your answer to my question,..have YOU [ or your associates
]been there yet?
Edward?........Mike?.....
EDIT:..sorry jmacleod, I didn't see your answer to my question,..have YOU [ or your associates
]been there yet?
K
Kunu
Guest
Just verbalizing my eyebrow raising here, but in addition to the debate over the mere existence of Jacket Coates, how would a random Private know about the incidence of VD among soldiers to one decimal place? The only possibility I can imagine is if he was involved in any way with the collection or analysis of such statistics, and if so, why are those not being cited directly instead?
Mr Macleod,
While the display of the VD statistics in the context stated was insensitive, these data were not taken from The Private War of Jacket Coates, which was published in 1966. After reading Mister Worthington's article, I checked my copies of Jacket Coates and David Bercuson's Blood on the Hills.
There was no mention of VD statistics in Wood's book; however there was considerable play made of the propensity of Canadian troops in rear areas to frequent establishments of less than sterling repute. In Blood on the Hills, Bercuson discussed the concern expressed by the national authorities of the nations contributing troops to the Commonwealth Division over the high rate of VD. Now, the Canadian figures were higher than those of the British, Australians and New Zealanders, but our data included certain infections that the other countries did not class as venereal in nature. Having said that, VD has been a problem for the Canadian army dating back to the Boer War. (I found a reference to a fairly large number of soldiers in one unit in South Africa having been diagnosed with it in an entry in a Canadian staff diary while researching my book on that conflict.)
After having said all that, there are two points I consider moot:
a. When dealing with material that may be controversial, it is best to rely on primary sources as much as possible. I do not know if the CWM staff did this or not. However, if they had, surely Mister Rabinovich would have cited these sources in the letter referred to by Peter Worthington.
b. If the design of the caption on the display was as quoted, than it was in very questionable taste. One can only wonder what the senior staff were thinking when they approved it. Surely there was a better way of making the point.
While the display of the VD statistics in the context stated was insensitive, these data were not taken from The Private War of Jacket Coates, which was published in 1966. After reading Mister Worthington's article, I checked my copies of Jacket Coates and David Bercuson's Blood on the Hills.
There was no mention of VD statistics in Wood's book; however there was considerable play made of the propensity of Canadian troops in rear areas to frequent establishments of less than sterling repute. In Blood on the Hills, Bercuson discussed the concern expressed by the national authorities of the nations contributing troops to the Commonwealth Division over the high rate of VD. Now, the Canadian figures were higher than those of the British, Australians and New Zealanders, but our data included certain infections that the other countries did not class as venereal in nature. Having said that, VD has been a problem for the Canadian army dating back to the Boer War. (I found a reference to a fairly large number of soldiers in one unit in South Africa having been diagnosed with it in an entry in a Canadian staff diary while researching my book on that conflict.)
After having said all that, there are two points I consider moot:
a. When dealing with material that may be controversial, it is best to rely on primary sources as much as possible. I do not know if the CWM staff did this or not. However, if they had, surely Mister Rabinovich would have cited these sources in the letter referred to by Peter Worthington.
b. If the design of the caption on the display was as quoted, than it was in very questionable taste. One can only wonder what the senior staff were thinking when they approved it. Surely there was a better way of making the point.
S
Sam69
Guest
Although I am loathe to extend this already messy discussion, I thought it might be helpful to offer a view of the two pictures being discussed for the benefit of those who have not yet been to the new CWM (both were taken during my first visit to the CWM when it opened in May):
Despite my great respect for Sussex11, I will disagree with him on one point. I found neither painting to be particularly well executed. In particular, the painting of Kyle Brown really falls short, in my opinion, of the standard of the museum. I also feel that the painting of Brown offers absolutely no relevant context to the incident in Belet Huen and does little more than open old wounds.
On the positive side, I've now visited the museum three times since its opening and have noticed that the improvements are legion every time I go. I was quite critical of some of the obmissions after my first visit but I have found them to be rapidly filling in as the staff has more time to research and flesh out the exhibits.
And, if you have not visited yet, you should really make the effort to go see it. Whatever you do, don't miss the easy to overlook Memorial Hall with the original gravestone for the Unknown Soldier. It is stunning:
Sam
Despite my great respect for Sussex11, I will disagree with him on one point. I found neither painting to be particularly well executed. In particular, the painting of Kyle Brown really falls short, in my opinion, of the standard of the museum. I also feel that the painting of Brown offers absolutely no relevant context to the incident in Belet Huen and does little more than open old wounds.
On the positive side, I've now visited the museum three times since its opening and have noticed that the improvements are legion every time I go. I was quite critical of some of the obmissions after my first visit but I have found them to be rapidly filling in as the staff has more time to research and flesh out the exhibits.
And, if you have not visited yet, you should really make the effort to go see it. Whatever you do, don't miss the easy to overlook Memorial Hall with the original gravestone for the Unknown Soldier. It is stunning:
Sam
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Just outside the door to that room mentioned above I quite unexpectedly came across the name of a friend I'd gone though battleschool with.
It was inscribed into a memorial stone set into the wall.
Cpl James Oglvie, a friend to several of us here on Army.ca had died in the former Yugoslavia.
Although quite a shock to me (and others once told about it) it was never-the-less well done and, in an odd way, pleasing to see that our friends are being remembered. Not just the soldiers from the WW1 & 2 and Korea.
Slim
It was inscribed into a memorial stone set into the wall.
Cpl James Oglvie, a friend to several of us here on Army.ca had died in the former Yugoslavia.
Although quite a shock to me (and others once told about it) it was never-the-less well done and, in an odd way, pleasing to see that our friends are being remembered. Not just the soldiers from the WW1 & 2 and Korea.
Slim
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
So, does the museum have anything good to say about the rest of the Airborne's history? Or just another perverbial slap?
Cheers,
Andrew
Cheers,
Andrew
I would be surprised if senior (or any) staff of the CWM replied to Mr. Worthingtom or
Mr. Chadderton - not their style. This is common in the Canadian public service, particularly
in Heritage Canada, for whatever reason. Then there are the flunkies; lots of flunkies in
Ottawa to support Ministers. They are political, mostly focused on a political career after
Ottawa ministerial service - some are competent, some are not, they are of course a great
source of information (mostly opinions). Only problem we have encountered from time to
time is that they feel in some cases that they can speak on behalf of a Minister, which as all
of you know, can be a problem at a political level of escalating proportions. We know Dr. David
Bercuson, provided him with information included in his book "The Secret Army" the story of the
Israeli Air Force - Dave Bercuson is a very thorough researcher and it is rare that something of
consequence affecting the CWM would get by him. MacLeod
Mr. Chadderton - not their style. This is common in the Canadian public service, particularly
in Heritage Canada, for whatever reason. Then there are the flunkies; lots of flunkies in
Ottawa to support Ministers. They are political, mostly focused on a political career after
Ottawa ministerial service - some are competent, some are not, they are of course a great
source of information (mostly opinions). Only problem we have encountered from time to
time is that they feel in some cases that they can speak on behalf of a Minister, which as all
of you know, can be a problem at a political level of escalating proportions. We know Dr. David
Bercuson, provided him with information included in his book "The Secret Army" the story of the
Israeli Air Force - Dave Bercuson is a very thorough researcher and it is rare that something of
consequence affecting the CWM would get by him. MacLeod
Gunner
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 430
If anyone at the CWM responded to either of the gentlemen, would they have even listened to the CWM side of argument?
Dr Bercuson is a reputable academic however he is not without his own faults when it comes to research as described by Dr Brereton Greehous' review of his book on Korea:
http://www.journal.dnd.ca/engraph/Vol1/no1/pdf/75-80_e.pdf
You need to scroll down to the book review. You can witness some wonderful intellectual banter between the two in subsequent issues.
- Reaction score
- 6,274
- Points
- 1,360
Well, Edward Campbell and I went through the museum again and what a difference going during the week can make.
More time on each article, less looking over/ through people, it was really nice. Of course, having a military history buff alongside makes it better also.
There were two things that really grabbed me, the WW 1 interactive bunker and the "badlands" display were fantastic, I really am disappointed that the day that I took my kids we skipped that area[WW 1] because of the crowds at the entrance. They really got thinking with the "Ortona" display in the WW2 area about how dangerous the war "thing" can be. Those displays would have really sent it home.
We saw new displays already happening, looking even better than before.
Everyone should check out this wonderful building whenever you get the chance.
Now, for a few "things"..... the Kyle Brown painting, please give it to me so I can adorn the inside of my wood stove with it, pretty please?
It would be nice, but I don't think feasible, if the Spitfire could go into the gallery, I think this infamous bird needs to have more than the wheels and undercarriage seen.
...and lastly, for the love of God, please put more emphasis on the "Queen Victoria Scarf" exhibit, I had no clue about this and the fact that she hand-knitted these bravery scarfs [8] just blew me away. I pretty much stared [gaping] for several minutes on this one, it truly should be a "showpiece".
More time on each article, less looking over/ through people, it was really nice. Of course, having a military history buff alongside makes it better also.
There were two things that really grabbed me, the WW 1 interactive bunker and the "badlands" display were fantastic, I really am disappointed that the day that I took my kids we skipped that area[WW 1] because of the crowds at the entrance. They really got thinking with the "Ortona" display in the WW2 area about how dangerous the war "thing" can be. Those displays would have really sent it home.
We saw new displays already happening, looking even better than before.
Everyone should check out this wonderful building whenever you get the chance.
Now, for a few "things"..... the Kyle Brown painting, please give it to me so I can adorn the inside of my wood stove with it, pretty please?
It would be nice, but I don't think feasible, if the Spitfire could go into the gallery, I think this infamous bird needs to have more than the wheels and undercarriage seen.
...and lastly, for the love of God, please put more emphasis on the "Queen Victoria Scarf" exhibit, I had no clue about this and the fact that she hand-knitted these bravery scarfs [8] just blew me away. I pretty much stared [gaping] for several minutes on this one, it truly should be a "showpiece".
Lance Wiebe
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
- 6
- Points
- 230
I'm heading through Ontario on vacation next week, and plan to visit the War Museum on the 27th. Then I'll add my two bits worth....
Mike Strobel writing in the Toronto Sun today, defines "The Forgotten Heros". He is referring
to the many Canadians who served in the Far East Campaigns in World War II, which included
India and Burma. He also is focused on yet another problem with the Canadian War Museum
in it's reference to the Far East as decipted in it's VJ-Day Exhibit - which features only a passing
reference to Burma (and India) and the campaign, in which Canadians participated is referred
to as "the Pacific Campaign". Well, that in fact is not what it was. Two RCAF Squadrons participated
in support of the British 14th Army in Burma, 435 and 436. A restored Douglas DC-3 (C-47) Dakota
is displayed in the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum Mount Hope ON, in the colors of RCAF 436
Squadron, which for one thing supplied the Special Service Force commanded by General Orde
Wingate, "the Chindits". When one of those Daks was stripped down at RCAF Trention (6RD)
in 1949 for reconfiguation as a Nav Trainer, we found rice husks under the floor boards. In any
event, the veterans of the Forgotten War from Canada, deserve better from the CWM, including
Major Charles Hoey of B.C. who won the VC while serving with the British Army in Burma. The problem
with the CWM is that they just don't get it. MacLeod
to the many Canadians who served in the Far East Campaigns in World War II, which included
India and Burma. He also is focused on yet another problem with the Canadian War Museum
in it's reference to the Far East as decipted in it's VJ-Day Exhibit - which features only a passing
reference to Burma (and India) and the campaign, in which Canadians participated is referred
to as "the Pacific Campaign". Well, that in fact is not what it was. Two RCAF Squadrons participated
in support of the British 14th Army in Burma, 435 and 436. A restored Douglas DC-3 (C-47) Dakota
is displayed in the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum Mount Hope ON, in the colors of RCAF 436
Squadron, which for one thing supplied the Special Service Force commanded by General Orde
Wingate, "the Chindits". When one of those Daks was stripped down at RCAF Trention (6RD)
in 1949 for reconfiguation as a Nav Trainer, we found rice husks under the floor boards. In any
event, the veterans of the Forgotten War from Canada, deserve better from the CWM, including
Major Charles Hoey of B.C. who won the VC while serving with the British Army in Burma. The problem
with the CWM is that they just don't get it. MacLeod
- Reaction score
- 6,274
- Points
- 1,360
jmacleod,
This is the third time I have asked you this, have you or any of your "associates" actually been there?
If all you have are the ramblings of others, than you have no case and are not qualified to render the level of judgement that you do on the museum or on those who are running the show.
I've have been twice now and I would not even think to suggest these people "don't get it". There is simply a lot "to get".
Stay in your lane!!
This is the third time I have asked you this, have you or any of your "associates" actually been there?
If all you have are the ramblings of others, than you have no case and are not qualified to render the level of judgement that you do on the museum or on those who are running the show.
I've have been twice now and I would not even think to suggest these people "don't get it". There is simply a lot "to get".
Stay in your lane!!
The answer is yes. One of our Ottawa people was there. This facilty needs a change in direction
it is simply not good enough - now I am sorry you are excited, annoyed and agitated about
this, but another sitiuation has been brought forward by a respected Journalist - have you read
Mike Stroble's article "The Forgotten Heros" in todays Toronto Sun. If not, read it. The fact is
that Mr. Chadderton, Mr. Worthington, Mr. Stroble, the Korean Veteran's Organization, Mr.
Farquharson (former RCAF 435 Squadron, Burma-India WWII) plus a number of Letter's to The
Editor about the new Canadian War Museum are all saying the same thing. If you think so much
about this rather murky facility, why not go to work there. Bob Farquharson is a former Professor
at the University of Toronto - he says " The Museum is the one place that can finally make people
aware - it's shocking what they've done" Professor Farquharson's book "For Your Tomorrow"
described by Strobel as " an exotic, intoxicating ride through the Forgotten War" Why is not
the late S/L Len Birchall, "the Saviour of Ceylon" not given the stature he deserves in the CWM?
it is simply not good enough - now I am sorry you are excited, annoyed and agitated about
this, but another sitiuation has been brought forward by a respected Journalist - have you read
Mike Stroble's article "The Forgotten Heros" in todays Toronto Sun. If not, read it. The fact is
that Mr. Chadderton, Mr. Worthington, Mr. Stroble, the Korean Veteran's Organization, Mr.
Farquharson (former RCAF 435 Squadron, Burma-India WWII) plus a number of Letter's to The
Editor about the new Canadian War Museum are all saying the same thing. If you think so much
about this rather murky facility, why not go to work there. Bob Farquharson is a former Professor
at the University of Toronto - he says " The Museum is the one place that can finally make people
aware - it's shocking what they've done" Professor Farquharson's book "For Your Tomorrow"
described by Strobel as " an exotic, intoxicating ride through the Forgotten War" Why is not
the late S/L Len Birchall, "the Saviour of Ceylon" not given the stature he deserves in the CWM?
- Reaction score
- 5,687
- Points
- 1,060
Mr McLeod,
I may have missed it in a very early post or some such, but you keep talking about your "associates". You've been asked on numerous occasions who they are, and what they're about. Really, I'm not that interested. What does interest me though is if this is a private initiative by yourself and "associates" or are you tied to some sort of organization, a la Polaris Institute or some such. Your posts definitely have the flavour of a "political agenda" for the sake of "a" party, as opposed to the population in general.
Your kin involved in politics have taught you well, while not as obsfucating as the "Velvet Fog" you manage to skirt direct questioning and slyly change the direction of the conversation quite adeptly.
So straight answer to straight questions please. Does the group your speaking for consitute a formal organization? Does it's agenda seek to keep/ dispose of the party in power? If the answer to either is yes, who are you, what do you represent, and please provide a web link.
I may have missed it in a very early post or some such, but you keep talking about your "associates". You've been asked on numerous occasions who they are, and what they're about. Really, I'm not that interested. What does interest me though is if this is a private initiative by yourself and "associates" or are you tied to some sort of organization, a la Polaris Institute or some such. Your posts definitely have the flavour of a "political agenda" for the sake of "a" party, as opposed to the population in general.
Your kin involved in politics have taught you well, while not as obsfucating as the "Velvet Fog" you manage to skirt direct questioning and slyly change the direction of the conversation quite adeptly.
So straight answer to straight questions please. Does the group your speaking for consitute a formal organization? Does it's agenda seek to keep/ dispose of the party in power? If the answer to either is yes, who are you, what do you represent, and please provide a web link.
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