War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[Gramps]

No, I am not trying to accuse anyone of anything. My point was that when people seem to have a different opinion on something or are offended by something in a different way from the majority of people on these forums they are shot down rather quickly. Maybe "paranoid" was a poor choice of words on my part, so be it.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Written back and forth to Journalist Peter Worthington since his story on the death of Lee Harvey
Oswald in Dallas in November 1963. Worthington is one of Canada's foremost journalists. Don't
know anything about Taylor or his "cabal" whatever that is, have not read anything by Taylor
for years, just not interested. Journalist Worthington is not part of anything but the Toronto Sun
-an interesting paper, don't always agree with it, but that's what journalism is all about. Worthington
would get a good laugh about being part of a "cabal". MacLeod

That may well be true, but his reporting from Kabul was "shite", plain and simple, and he routinely uses the likes of Taylor and Drapeau as a basis for his commentary.

 

[Gunner]

My point is that I really think deep down in my heart that the government or the brass did not defend the Canadian Airborne Regiment at all and used the whole incident as a reason to cut the budget. Hence the Regiment was disbanded. There has been other wrong doings by Canadian soldiers through all of its history but this was the first time that many paid the price for the few.

Well, the budget was going down long before the CAR incident occurred as part of the "peace dividend" from the end of the Cold War and the mounting debt and deficit from Federal mismanagement of the countries books.  There were alot of officers that submitted their retirement over this incident (MGen Vernon being but one) and no one seems to remember...

 

[Roger]

Well, the budget was going down long before the CAR incident occurred as part of the "peace dividend" from the end of the Cold War and the mounting debt and deficit from Federal mismanagement of the countries books.   There were alot of officers that submitted their retirement over this incident (MGen Vernon being but one) and no one seems to remember...

Yes I agree and I will stand with pride and sheke the hand of Mgen Verno any time anywhere and General Lewis MacKenzie I have the upmost recpect for them. But they where too few to change the course of history at the time.

 

[Gunner]

Our much maligned general officers have a lot to be criticized about but there are moments in history that get brushed over by over generalizations that your original post indicated.  Look up the admiral's revolt due to integration (including Adm Landymore who almost took us to war with Cuba), the refusing of raises in the late 80s/early 90s by army general's to highlight the lack of funding going into eqpt, etc.  Gen Vernons and Mckenzie are not the only ones who pulled pin on principle after the CAR disbanded...

 

[jmacleod]

Wrote many letters to a number of Defence Minister's including Minister David Collenette, in
support and retention of the CAR, and later to other MND's to reinstate the famous unit, to
no avail, in fact I posted a reply from one MND on this site. Collenette was a Toronto MP,who
stumbled into the Liberal nomination when the sitting MP, Doug Abbott became ill. He was a
consultant in Toronto, "Mandrake Consultants". He was an early supporter of Chretien, who
made sure his political supporters were rewarded, but, having said that, I have always felt that
if the Generals of the period had formed a common front, and were not intimidated by DM
Fowler, Collenette would have caved in. Chretien of course could have cared less about the CAR
-he never had any links with the Canadian Military - just a politician. One of the worst days in the
history of the Canadian Army, an event that should never have happened. Scott Taylor was no
friend to the CAR, as many of you know far better than I - a lot of the negative stuff was leaked
by him to the CBC, who did a real hatchet job on the troops -wrote Taylor off years ago. MacLeod

 

[Slim]

Mr MCleod

You made a statement about why the paintings should be pulled off the wals of the CWM. You cited aborigonal issues.

Would you please quantify your earlier statement!?

Slim
STAFF

 

[KevinB]

I doubt the intent was racist - but I find it funny that Tommy Prince or Paul Springer (MB and CDS comd in Somalia) did not rate while the negatives did...

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

If I recall correctly, there is a Tommy Prince display in the CWM...

 

[KevinB]

Okay I will take off my tinfoil hat now.

But I'd venture to say that a painting of Paul shooting the Somalia truck drive shooting up the aid wharehouse and at the driver and workers would have been more in keeping with the Somalia mission - or their rescue of the French woman attacked by the shark (though she died)  - Call me CRAZY but I thought the CWM was about WAR...

 

[jmacleod]

What a good many people in Canada are concerned about is the "agenda" of the bureaucrats
who staff the CWM - why indeed is the Presidential Unit Citation won by the CAR for their service
to the Country in Somalia not on display - Former CF member Clayton Matchee was never convicted
of a crime, he was never tried by a CM or in a Canadian Court of Ordinary Criminal Jurisdiction - and
Brown in our opinion would not have been convicted in a Canadian Criminal Court, yet these rwo
unfortunate Canadian Aboriginal soldiers are singled out by bureaucrats who have no links whatever
to the Canadian Military - why? Who made the decision? - you will not find a portrait of former Marine
Corps Private Lee Harvey Oswald on display in any USMC or US Military Museum. Like the famed military
museums in the United Kngdom, staff at the CWM must be former members of the CF in our opinion
-they do not have a hidden agenda, most I have met in my 75 years are very knowledgeable,
articulate, as proven by this site, and can maintain public interest - because without that, the CWM
will fail. MacLeod

 

[KevinB]

Mr Macleod - your RTFO on the conviction issue.

 

[Infanteer]

Sure, we don't find Lee Harvey Oswald or William Calley in an American museum, but the issue isn't one of racism.

If you disagree with the above, which I am assuming by your complaint to the Human Rights Commission, then quit pussyfooting around the issue and state that you believe the Museum directors are racist bigots for putting the paintings up.

 

[jmacleod]

Thats exactly what the Canadian Human Rights Commission will determine - once the CHRC starts
looking the controversial paintings will vanish - because CHRC activities will bring on media views,
particularly from the Sun newspapers - Journalist Worthington writes for the Sun. We do not
"pussyfoot around" - leave that to General Officers in the CF. MacLeod

 

[Infanteer]

Thats exactly what the Canadian Human Rights Commission will determine - once the CHRC starts
looking the controversial paintings will vanish - because CHRC activities will bring on media views,
particularly from the Sun newspapers - Journalist Worthington writes for the Sun. We do not
"pussyfoot around" - leave that to General Officers in the CF.

I'm not asking what the Human Rights Commission thinks, I'm asking for your thoughts, since you announced that your were bringing the charge of racism (by way of the Matchee and Brown paintings) to the Commission.

Sounds like some politicking to me - you don't like the paintings (or perhaps the guys who put them up), so you are drumming up a charge that you refuse to substantiate here.

 

[jmacleod]

Thanks for your positive thoughts - changes nothing of course. MacLeod

 

[Infanteer]

Thanks for your positive thoughts - changes nothing of course. MacLeod

That's what I thought.

Good luck.

 

[sussex11]

I had not intended to participate further in the War Museum discussion, but I cannot let J. Macleod's comments pass. He makes a series of charges about the "agenda" of CWM bureaucrats. Evidence please? He says they have no liniks to the CF. Evidence please. He says CWM staff must be ex-CF. Why? And, most important in his recent posts, he suggests the Matchee and Brown paintings are offensive to First Nations people. I know a ploy when I see one, but this is an extraordinarily silly one. Are Brown and Matchee identified as Indians in the captions at CWM? Who, except the extremely well informed, would know their ethnicity? And in what way is the hanging of two paintings--one a work of imagination, the other based on a photograph--a human rights issue?
  Let's be clear here: J. Macleod is mischief-making, using a phony human rights argument to advance a particular point of view about what CWM should and should not display. It hasn't worked on those who have responded here; it won't work on CWM either. And it will be tossed out by the CHRC.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Acorn has summed my thoughts on this up very well.

It is readily apparent to me that we have a cabal (my word o' the week) of naysayers and conspiracy theorists who, apparently, are determined to resort to any means in an attempt to get their rather nebulous point across.  What bothers me, as sussex11 has alluded to, is that these people will often claim that issues such as this are an "insult to the soldiers" and will argue that they are serving the interests of the CF by pushing their agenda.  This is what has bothered me about Taylor, Drapeau, Worthington, and (to a lesser extent) Chatterton no matter what respect I have for the accomplishments of the latter two gentlemen.

Surely, jmacleod, the posts here from a number of serving officers, Sr NCOs and soldiers at least gives you something to reflect upon before launching a vitriolic and senseless CHRC complaint based upon nothing.  Or perhaps the opinions of those whom you claim to represent don't count?

 

[jmacleod]

*******************Acorn is entitled to his opinion, but it will not change anything
-there is nothing vitriolic about our perspective. There are paintings decipting former Canadian
Aborignal soldiers displayed in the Canadian War Museum, which no one has been able to explain
what they are doing there. What is the positive impact of these paintings? You can insult Clifford
Chadderton and Peter Worthington, I am sure they are used to this by now, considering their
public careers. We commenced on this activity some weeks ago. This complaint is something
that the Canadian Human Rights Commission will have to deal with. Their decision will be the
final arbitrator, in this particular instance. I can assure Sussex 11 that they will not "throw it
out". What surprises me is that a couple of individuals support the display of these controversial
paintings? why is that? One of the members of the Museum's Board of Trustees is an Aboriginal
woman from Cape Breton N.S. - what is her opinion?   Macleod









MODERATOR EDIT:
Inappropriate and abusive name calling toward another forum member.