Halifax Tar
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 10,299
- Points
- 1,260
Lightguns said:
Well that escalated quickly
VAdm Norman - Supply Ship contract: Legal fight
- Thread starter brihard
- Start date
Well that escalated quickly
- Reaction score
- 7,728
- Points
- 1,160
I get what you are saying Tar but I think Monsoon has a point. It is interesting (in a good way) that CBC, CTV and the Globe have all broken chunks of this story.
I wonder if some of the reporters may not have a special interest given the involvement of some of their own in the story line.
I'm still not getting what was "leaked".
The petitions to the Government are all perfectly legal and are/should be a matter of public record.
The decision of the Cabinet is also a matter of public record.
And it is common for the concerned parties to be immediately informed of any tribunal's decision immediately, rather than having to wait for the press release.
The discussions within the Cabinet themselves were never (to my knowledge) released and that, in my view, is the only part of the proceedings that would have been confidential.
I'm not getting it. ???
I wonder if some of the reporters may not have a special interest given the involvement of some of their own in the story line.
I'm still not getting what was "leaked".
The petitions to the Government are all perfectly legal and are/should be a matter of public record.
The decision of the Cabinet is also a matter of public record.
And it is common for the concerned parties to be immediately informed of any tribunal's decision immediately, rather than having to wait for the press release.
The discussions within the Cabinet themselves were never (to my knowledge) released and that, in my view, is the only part of the proceedings that would have been confidential.
I'm not getting it. ???
Halifax Tar
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 10,299
- Points
- 1,260
Chris Pook said:
Like I said, I hope he (Monsoon) is right.
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1,743
- Points
- 1,010
There is no getting it Chris.
Which, BTW, is the real story that is starting to emerge. And sorry to disappoint those of you who rehash the "Mile wide - inch deep" image. Here, the military implication is purely circumstantial to the story (other than the unprecedented removal).
The real story is a cabinet decision, allegedly "confidential" (Here I agree with Chris: It is not, only the advice of the civil service and the actual deliberations are - not the decision itself unless National Security is at issue, in which case it must be made to become covered by the National Secrets Act in its current form according to the agreed procedure - and I am only saying that to assuage those who would raise the "secret" decisions that were used of the Iran Embassy affair) political decision was "leaked" when they didn't want it to, as occurs on a daily basis in Ottawa according to the past head of CSIS*, and it pissed-off the PM and the head of the civil service because it foiled their politicking. They were mad enough that when the office leak investigation failed to reveal the source (as should be since, as Yes Minister teaches again, the purpose of leak investigation is to make sure no one ever knows who leaked), they set the RCMP on to the trail as a criminal investigation.
Now this is the real story, and the real danger. This is like a SLAP suit we see by large corporations in the public courts, Libel suits taken by deep pocket corporations to silence their public critics and create a chill against any further attempt at public criticism. In the present case, these leaks are the bread and butter in Ottawa - in fact, the way the article refer to "insider information" basically means that they were the recipient of a leak of that information. Similarly, when the media make a show of their "XYZ media has obtained this spectacular document through an access to information request ..." do you actually believe that they just happen to decide to ask for such document at random "in case". Of course not, somebody inside the civil service or the political staff tipped them as to the existence of such document.
So the real story for the press here will be ultimately did the PM use the RCMP for political purposes of "chilling" leaks that make Ottawa and the media capable of doing their work. The military aspect is secondary and would not have been different if an Assistant Deputy Minister had been on the receiving end instead of an Admiral.
*: Or to put it the way Sir Humphrey did: "The ship of state, Bernard, is the only ship that leaks from the top".
Which, BTW, is the real story that is starting to emerge. And sorry to disappoint those of you who rehash the "Mile wide - inch deep" image. Here, the military implication is purely circumstantial to the story (other than the unprecedented removal).
The real story is a cabinet decision, allegedly "confidential" (Here I agree with Chris: It is not, only the advice of the civil service and the actual deliberations are - not the decision itself unless National Security is at issue, in which case it must be made to become covered by the National Secrets Act in its current form according to the agreed procedure - and I am only saying that to assuage those who would raise the "secret" decisions that were used of the Iran Embassy affair) political decision was "leaked" when they didn't want it to, as occurs on a daily basis in Ottawa according to the past head of CSIS*, and it pissed-off the PM and the head of the civil service because it foiled their politicking. They were mad enough that when the office leak investigation failed to reveal the source (as should be since, as Yes Minister teaches again, the purpose of leak investigation is to make sure no one ever knows who leaked), they set the RCMP on to the trail as a criminal investigation.
Now this is the real story, and the real danger. This is like a SLAP suit we see by large corporations in the public courts, Libel suits taken by deep pocket corporations to silence their public critics and create a chill against any further attempt at public criticism. In the present case, these leaks are the bread and butter in Ottawa - in fact, the way the article refer to "insider information" basically means that they were the recipient of a leak of that information. Similarly, when the media make a show of their "XYZ media has obtained this spectacular document through an access to information request ..." do you actually believe that they just happen to decide to ask for such document at random "in case". Of course not, somebody inside the civil service or the political staff tipped them as to the existence of such document.
So the real story for the press here will be ultimately did the PM use the RCMP for political purposes of "chilling" leaks that make Ottawa and the media capable of doing their work. The military aspect is secondary and would not have been different if an Assistant Deputy Minister had been on the receiving end instead of an Admiral.
*: Or to put it the way Sir Humphrey did: "The ship of state, Bernard, is the only ship that leaks from the top".
Halifax Tar
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 10,299
- Points
- 1,260
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I suspect if this story starts heading in your highlighted direction someone will step in front of the PM and be quickly thrown under the bus. I think we will find our PM is made of Teflon, nothing will stick to him.
Now the fact that reporters like Cudmore are now government staffers, that reeks of patronage.
- Reaction score
- 2,685
- Points
- 940
Technically, it's not Teflon....Halifax Tar said:
- Reaction score
- 7,728
- Points
- 1,160
Halifax Tar said:
I think the candidate has already been identified. It wasn't "just" Justin that made the decision. He made the decision with "professional" advice, according to that latest Globe and Mail article. Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick.
Sir Humphrey. Ambassador to Zanzibar or New Year's List?
Monsoon posted the link to this article earlier - here it is in full (highlights mine):
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-sought-rcmp-probe-of-cabinet-leaks-on-navy-supply-ship/article34802910/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile
Trudeau sought RCMP probe of cabinet leaks on navy supply ship
Robert Fife and Steven Chase
OTTAWA
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pushed for the RCMP to investigate leaks of classified cabinet deliberations regarding a $667-million naval supply ship project that eventually led the police to accuse Vice-Admiral Mark Norman of breach of trust, according to an insider.
The decision to ask the Mounties to probe the matter was made at the highest level of the government after an internal investigation by Security Operations at the Privy Council Office failed to discover the source of the cabinet leaks.
It is common for confidential information to be leaked in Ottawa, and it is unusual for a Prime Minister to get involved in summoning the RCMP to investigate. This sends a powerful message throughout the government and may account for the energy and effort the RCMP has invested over the past 17 months that now centres on Vice-Adm. Norman.
The insider told The Globe and Mail that Mr. Trudeau and Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick were frustrated and angry that information about a cabinet decision in November, 2015, to delay approval for the project with Quebec's Chantier Davie Canada Inc. shipyard was leaked to CBC reporter James Cudmore, who is now a senior adviser to Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan*.
"The Prime Minister and the Clerk were furious and ordered the RCMP to investigate once the PCO [Privy Council Office] said they couldn't find out who was leaking," the insider said. "There was a lot of anger because cabinet decisions were revealed."
Mr. Cudmore had reported in detail on a Nov. 19, 2015, cabinet decision to delay the sole-source contract to Chantier Davie that the former Conservative government had awarded before the October general election. The Liberals, who had just taken power, had pressed pause on the matter while they fielded complaints about how the Tories had handled it.
CBC reported that James Irving, chief executive of Irving Shipbuilding Inc., had allegedly "meddled in the decision by sending letters to several cabinet ministers about the deal," saying his firm could deliver the supply ship at a lower cost.
A heavily redacted RCMP affidavit used to obtain a warrant to search Vice-Adm. Norman's Ottawa home on Jan. 9 demonstrated the level of concern within the Trudeau cabinet about the leaks. The affidavit included material from interviews the Mounties did with a number of cabinet ministers.
Treasury Board President Scott Brison told RCMP the leaks prevented cabinet from doing its job to properly analyze the Chantier Davie project as political pressure mounted in Quebec City for Ottawa to keep the contract in place.
"The rendering of this [classified information] into the public domain did an awful lot to limit our ability to what we'd intended to do, and that is more due diligence on this," Mr. Brison is quoted in the affidavit as saying.
The Liberal government, facing protests from the Quebec government and the union for the Chantier Davie shipyard, eventually approved the project.
The Prime Minister's Office did not respond to a request for comment from The Globe regarding Mr. Trudeau's role in initiating the RCMP probe.
A government official later provided a statement, saying the Clerk of the Privy Council, who is Canada's top bureaucrat, "may ask for the involvement" of the RCMP after an internal investigation.
"The RCMP will then determine if there are sufficient grounds to investigate," said Raymond Rivet, spokesman for the Privy Council Office. "PMO does not direct investigations and we cannot comment further as the matter is currently under investigation. The Government of Canada takes the issues of leaks very seriously."
The Mounties have alleged Vice-Adm. Norman violated the Criminal Code by leaking cabinet secrets. The investigation into the leaks - called Project Anchor - has so far spanned 17 months without laying any charges against the high-ranking naval officer.
A Chantier Davie executive who spoke on background to The Globe said the cabinet delay of the project was no surprise and that the company learned about it from two senior civil servants the day of the decision and not from Vice-Adm. Norman.
"We were told that straight after the cabinet meeting by the bureaucrats … so how did everybody find out there was going to be a delay in cabinet? The whole of Ottawa knew," the executive said.
The details of the RCMP allegations against Vice-Adm. Norman remain secret because large segments of the affidavit are redacted.
However, Ontario Superior Court judge Kevin Phillips issued a ruling on Friday to lift the publication ban and unseal 76 of 123 paragraphs in the affidavit - about 60 per cent of the document.
Justice Phillips' decision was stayed until this Friday to allow Vice-Adm. Norman's legal team to consider filing an appeal to a higher court. The Globe and Mail, later joined by CBC, CTV and National Post, had gone to court to get access to the RCMP document.
On Monday, Vice-Adm. Norman's lawyer said her client will not appeal Justice Phillips' ruling.
In his ruling, Justice Phillips said the "potential allegation against Vice-Admiral Norman is that he was trying to keep a contractual relationship together so that the country might get itself a badly needed supply ship." He went on to say "nowhere is there any suggestion that the man was even thinking of trying to line his own pockets."
The unredacted parts of the RCMP court documents suggest Chantier Davie and a sister company, Federal Fleet Services, were attempting to press the Trudeau cabinet to stick with the contract. Two weeks after the leaks, the Liberal government approved the project to transform a cargo vessel into a temporary navy supply ship.
As part of the investigation, the RCMP obtained search warrants in the last two months of 2016 to seize the contents of Vice-Adm. Norman's mobile devices as well as e-mails from Spencer Fraser, CEO of Federal Fleet Services.
The Mounties also raided the offices of Mr. Fraser and three Chantier Davie executives and their Ottawa lobbyists.
* While I am reasonably certain that Mr Cudmore was hired into his new position because of his excellent journalist skills, I could forgive somebody for wondering if a confidential source or insight was offered up in exchange. Mr Cudmore was once a Member here, and may still be, if memory serves me correctly.
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/trudeau-sought-rcmp-probe-of-cabinet-leaks-on-navy-supply-ship/article34802910/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile
Trudeau sought RCMP probe of cabinet leaks on navy supply ship
Robert Fife and Steven Chase
OTTAWA
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pushed for the RCMP to investigate leaks of classified cabinet deliberations regarding a $667-million naval supply ship project that eventually led the police to accuse Vice-Admiral Mark Norman of breach of trust, according to an insider.
The decision to ask the Mounties to probe the matter was made at the highest level of the government after an internal investigation by Security Operations at the Privy Council Office failed to discover the source of the cabinet leaks.
It is common for confidential information to be leaked in Ottawa, and it is unusual for a Prime Minister to get involved in summoning the RCMP to investigate. This sends a powerful message throughout the government and may account for the energy and effort the RCMP has invested over the past 17 months that now centres on Vice-Adm. Norman.
The insider told The Globe and Mail that Mr. Trudeau and Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick were frustrated and angry that information about a cabinet decision in November, 2015, to delay approval for the project with Quebec's Chantier Davie Canada Inc. shipyard was leaked to CBC reporter James Cudmore, who is now a senior adviser to Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan*.
"The Prime Minister and the Clerk were furious and ordered the RCMP to investigate once the PCO [Privy Council Office] said they couldn't find out who was leaking," the insider said. "There was a lot of anger because cabinet decisions were revealed."
Mr. Cudmore had reported in detail on a Nov. 19, 2015, cabinet decision to delay the sole-source contract to Chantier Davie that the former Conservative government had awarded before the October general election. The Liberals, who had just taken power, had pressed pause on the matter while they fielded complaints about how the Tories had handled it.
CBC reported that James Irving, chief executive of Irving Shipbuilding Inc., had allegedly "meddled in the decision by sending letters to several cabinet ministers about the deal," saying his firm could deliver the supply ship at a lower cost.
A heavily redacted RCMP affidavit used to obtain a warrant to search Vice-Adm. Norman's Ottawa home on Jan. 9 demonstrated the level of concern within the Trudeau cabinet about the leaks. The affidavit included material from interviews the Mounties did with a number of cabinet ministers.
Treasury Board President Scott Brison told RCMP the leaks prevented cabinet from doing its job to properly analyze the Chantier Davie project as political pressure mounted in Quebec City for Ottawa to keep the contract in place.
"The rendering of this [classified information] into the public domain did an awful lot to limit our ability to what we'd intended to do, and that is more due diligence on this," Mr. Brison is quoted in the affidavit as saying.
The Liberal government, facing protests from the Quebec government and the union for the Chantier Davie shipyard, eventually approved the project.
The Prime Minister's Office did not respond to a request for comment from The Globe regarding Mr. Trudeau's role in initiating the RCMP probe.
A government official later provided a statement, saying the Clerk of the Privy Council, who is Canada's top bureaucrat, "may ask for the involvement" of the RCMP after an internal investigation.
"The RCMP will then determine if there are sufficient grounds to investigate," said Raymond Rivet, spokesman for the Privy Council Office. "PMO does not direct investigations and we cannot comment further as the matter is currently under investigation. The Government of Canada takes the issues of leaks very seriously."
The Mounties have alleged Vice-Adm. Norman violated the Criminal Code by leaking cabinet secrets. The investigation into the leaks - called Project Anchor - has so far spanned 17 months without laying any charges against the high-ranking naval officer.
A Chantier Davie executive who spoke on background to The Globe said the cabinet delay of the project was no surprise and that the company learned about it from two senior civil servants the day of the decision and not from Vice-Adm. Norman.
"We were told that straight after the cabinet meeting by the bureaucrats … so how did everybody find out there was going to be a delay in cabinet? The whole of Ottawa knew," the executive said.
The details of the RCMP allegations against Vice-Adm. Norman remain secret because large segments of the affidavit are redacted.
However, Ontario Superior Court judge Kevin Phillips issued a ruling on Friday to lift the publication ban and unseal 76 of 123 paragraphs in the affidavit - about 60 per cent of the document.
Justice Phillips' decision was stayed until this Friday to allow Vice-Adm. Norman's legal team to consider filing an appeal to a higher court. The Globe and Mail, later joined by CBC, CTV and National Post, had gone to court to get access to the RCMP document.
On Monday, Vice-Adm. Norman's lawyer said her client will not appeal Justice Phillips' ruling.
In his ruling, Justice Phillips said the "potential allegation against Vice-Admiral Norman is that he was trying to keep a contractual relationship together so that the country might get itself a badly needed supply ship." He went on to say "nowhere is there any suggestion that the man was even thinking of trying to line his own pockets."
The unredacted parts of the RCMP court documents suggest Chantier Davie and a sister company, Federal Fleet Services, were attempting to press the Trudeau cabinet to stick with the contract. Two weeks after the leaks, the Liberal government approved the project to transform a cargo vessel into a temporary navy supply ship.
As part of the investigation, the RCMP obtained search warrants in the last two months of 2016 to seize the contents of Vice-Adm. Norman's mobile devices as well as e-mails from Spencer Fraser, CEO of Federal Fleet Services.
The Mounties also raided the offices of Mr. Fraser and three Chantier Davie executives and their Ottawa lobbyists.
* While I am reasonably certain that Mr Cudmore was hired into his new position because of his excellent journalist skills, I could forgive somebody for wondering if a confidential source or insight was offered up in exchange. Mr Cudmore was once a Member here, and may still be, if memory serves me correctly.
- Reaction score
- 3,132
- Points
- 1,260
... or because some former defence correspondents have ended up in ... eye-catching positions, they want truly arms-length folks on it? #PulledFromMyHatGuessMonsoon said:
Well, THAT certainly narrows it down re: the reason for the interest ...Loachman said:
- Reaction score
- 3,132
- Points
- 1,260
Given some legal history involving others, IMHO, we miiiiiiiiiiiiiight want to be careful about the type of speculating done on public fora here to avoid grief for the site owner. Just sayin' ...Loachman said:
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1,743
- Points
- 1,010
I get that some members would wish to infer that the entry of Mr. Cudmore, amongst others, into the political staff of minister has something to do with the investigation, but must say that, IMHO, I very much doubt any such connection.
While hiring political staff is easy, and therefore a nice "perk" a politician may grant someone, it is also just as easy to take it away, without cause, at any time thereafter. Moreover, it is also somewhat attached to the good fortune of the politician, either as a member of cabinet or as a member of the government. Considering the duration of one in a given department as minister, and the fact that there are elections every four years, I am far from convinced that such duties would be considered a good career move by an otherwise established member of the mainstream media. Especially when you consider that a few years as 'politico" may not necessarily make one easily re-hired in the said main stream media afterwards.
Put into the mix the fact that the political staffers salary is not necessarily any better than that of established journalist, and I am not convinced that it would entice any of them to relent on the journalist creed of protection of confidential sources (something they go to court over all the time), especially considering what breaching that code would entail for any future employment as a journalist.
While hiring political staff is easy, and therefore a nice "perk" a politician may grant someone, it is also just as easy to take it away, without cause, at any time thereafter. Moreover, it is also somewhat attached to the good fortune of the politician, either as a member of cabinet or as a member of the government. Considering the duration of one in a given department as minister, and the fact that there are elections every four years, I am far from convinced that such duties would be considered a good career move by an otherwise established member of the mainstream media. Especially when you consider that a few years as 'politico" may not necessarily make one easily re-hired in the said main stream media afterwards.
Put into the mix the fact that the political staffers salary is not necessarily any better than that of established journalist, and I am not convinced that it would entice any of them to relent on the journalist creed of protection of confidential sources (something they go to court over all the time), especially considering what breaching that code would entail for any future employment as a journalist.
- Reaction score
- 3,132
- Points
- 1,260
Don't matter - once the partisan outrage bus is wound up ...PPCLI Guy said:
- Reaction score
- 3,132
- Points
- 1,260
And some folks make a living litigating against certain forms of speculation. I was just keeping the site owner (who's already dealt with legal beagles because of things posted here) in mind.Chris Pook said:
- Reaction score
- 3,132
- Points
- 1,260
Seen - actually just a reminder from the "glass is half full" part of meChris Pook said:
Similar threads
- Article
