U.S. Politics 2017 (split fm US Election: 2016)

[Bird_Gunner45]

I get it, you do not believe in holding the person to account for their own actions. You also don't seem to believe that murderers won't use another means to do what they want if we just ban all the guns. Ted Bundy used blunt force trauma and strangulation. Timothy McVeigh made a giant truck bomb. Al-Qaeda used airplanes. In the UK they're using trucks and machetes. If you take away one method, it does not deter those who want to commit murder.

The holding people accountable would be the "individual" part of the equation. Guns are an instrument. If the Vegas shooter didn't have 23 semi-automatic rifles perhaps he wouldn't have killed or wounded the equivalent to an infantry bn though. That's the argument- limit the tools to limit the damage.

 

[Kat Stevens]

You mean this? https://army.ca/forums/threads/125056/post-1505792.html#msg1505792 ? If it were directed at you, you may have a point. Both of you completely and repeatedly miss my point. But I get it, semi auto guns bad, semi auto gun owners just a headline waiting to happen. Why can you not grasp that the guns in my house are not the problem, if I were determined to rack up a huge body count, I’d do it no matter what parliament says. It’s basic human non assholery that prevents that, not more or fewer rules. To the self defence argument being “silly”, you may want to ask the woman six miles from my house how silly she would have felt with a shotgun when two crackheads broke into her house and beat her before cleaning her out. It’s nice that the criminals where you live are non violent and I hope you appreciate them.

 

[Jarnhamar]

AR15s are very good for self-defense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUUKDv85DSY<--------Store owner repelling robbers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzMx3Z5EbQQ <------ 15 year old boy protecting his 12 year old sister from armed robbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZP9YniHY0c  <------- 3 intruders killed


Bringing up suicide hardly has anything to do with gun control unless the argument is to ban all firearms. Id say it matters very little what type of action is used in suicides.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

You mean this? https://army.ca/forums/threads/125056/post-1505792.html#msg1505792 ? If it were directed at you, you may have a point. Both of you completely and repeatedly miss my point. But I get it, semi auto guns bad, semi auto gun owners just a headline waiting to happen. Why can you not grasp that the guns in my house are not the problem, if I were determined to rack up a huge body count, I’d do it no matter what parliament says. It’s basic human non assholery that prevents that, not more or fewer rules. To the self defence argument being “silly”, you may want to ask the woman six miles from my house how silly she would have felt with a shotgun when two crackheads broke into her house and beat her before cleaning her out. It’s nice that the criminals where you live are non violent and I hope you appreciate them.

I've put my completely rational position about gun control, which neither blames guns nor gun owners, but argues for a degree of gun control for the US as a means of stopping mass shootings. I dont care about guns in your house- Canada does not have a gun problem evidenced by our 173 gun deaths vice 8800 in the US. It would seem our gun control laws work.

This isn't a crazy argument. All the evidence supports the facts that guns dont prevent crime, do increase suicide rates and gun violence rates, and dont add to security.

 

[jollyjacktar]

And it appears that some, myself included, aren't buying it.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

And it appears that some, myself included, aren't buying it.

And that's why the cycle of mass shootings will continue.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Un huh.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I think that gun violence in America is as much about culture as it is about gun control.  Some of that culture has a legal basis.  American's (IIRC) are permitted by law to use deadly force to protect their possessions, and their home.  In Canada, we are not. 

 

[mariomike]

Nice picture - Al Jolson - a white guy in black face taking a knee and singing "Swanee". Hmmm.  >

:cheers:

A lot of the old-timers performed in blackface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_entertainers_who_performed_in_blackface

As employees, NFL players can be fired.

But, they also have contracts and a collective agreement. Make an interesting arbitration.

For legal opinions,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=can+nfl+players+fire&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-rpa7heXWAhWLwVQKHSvwD0AQvwUIJSgA&biw=1280&bih=603

Apparently taking a knee was pretty much a non-issue until the President decided to make it one at a rally in Alabama, and on Twitter.

While they are at it, I wish professional sports in North America would do a better job of enforcing the old grooming standards.

The national anthem in sports (spoiler: it wasn't always this way)
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/

In college football, the national anthem rolls before the teams take the field. Commonly, the home team’s marching band plays the anthem, then greets that side as it comes onto the field.

FWIW I remember standing for Canada's national anthem in movie theatres.

 

[FJAG]

A lot of the old-timers performed in blackface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_entertainers_who_performed_in_blackface

As employees, NFL players can be fired.

But, they also have contracts and a collective agreement. Make an interesting arbitration.

For legal opinions,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=can+nfl+players+fire&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-rpa7heXWAhWLwVQKHSvwD0AQvwUIJSgA&biw=1280&bih=603

Apparently taking a knee was pretty much a non-issue until the President decided to make it one at a rally in Alabama, and on Twitter.

While they are at it, I wish professional sports in North America would do a better job of enforcing the old grooming standards.

The national anthem in sports (spoiler: it wasn't always this way)
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/

In college football, the national anthem rolls before the teams take the field. Commonly, the home team’s marching band plays the anthem, then greets that side as it comes onto the field.

FWIW I remember standing for Canada's national anthem in movie theatres.

A lot of interesting stuff there that I didn't know.

I followed up looking at US Code Title 36 chapter 3 (to which section 301 about the national anthem belongs) and note that it does not seem to have a penalty provision attached to it so breaking that law, in effect, is not punishable and therefore does not appear to be an offence.

The encouragement by Trump to have owners fire players who take a knee in my mind flirts dangerously with the common law tort of "interference with contractual relations". See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

In the Trump situation there appears to be some intimidation or coercion for political purposes which might be considered the independent wrong that would trigger the tort should some owner actually act upon it. (I'll leave it to some other lawyer to argue that what he's doing is absolutely fine. After all, that's what we lawyers do  )

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

A lot of interesting stuff there that I didn't know.

I followed up looking at US Code Title 36 chapter 3 (to which section 301 about the national anthem belongs) and note that it does not seem to have a penalty provision attached to it so breaking that law, in effect, is not punishable and therefore does not appear to be an offence.

The encouragement by Trump to have owners fire players who take a knee in my mind flirts dangerously with the common law tort of "interference with contractual relations". See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

In the Trump situation there appears to be some intimidation or coercion for political purposes which might be considered the independent wrong that would trigger the tort should some owner actually act upon it. (I'll leave it to some other lawyer to argue that what he's doing is absolutely fine. After all, that's what we lawyers do  )

:cheers:

In today's news, he is threatening to 'change tax law' to penalise the NFL over 'take a knee' protests.
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F10%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A10%2F10%2F2017&q=trump+take+a+knee+%22tax+law%22&oq=trump+take+a+knee+%22tax+law%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...10154.15730.0.16211.6.6.0.0.0.0.188.926.0j6.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.3.514...33i160k1j33i21k1.0.7W99HiKJU7k

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think that gun violence in America is as much about culture as it is about gun control.  Some of that culture has a legal basis.  American's (IIRC) are permitted by law to use deadly force to protect their possessions, and their home.  In Canada, we are not.

We are permitted to use deadly force to protect ourselves if warranted, oddly in Canada much of the recent self defense case law involves criminals shooting each other. In one instance a pot dealer shot a plains clothes police officer in a no knock raid and the murder charge against failed as he successfully argued that he feared for his life and did not know they were police.

 

[George Wallace]

I've put my completely rational position about gun control, which neither blames guns nor gun owners, but argues for a degree of gun control for the US as a means of stopping mass shootings. I dont care about guns in your house- Canada does not have a gun problem evidenced by our 173 gun deaths vice 8800 in the US. It would seem our gun control laws work.

So naturally having a smaller population, our numbers are lower.  However, what are the statistics when comparing "per one hundred" or "per one thousand"?

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

So naturally having a smaller population, our numbers are lower.  However, what are the statistics when comparing "per one hundred" or "per one thousand"?

True, the US is larger than Canada. There's varying statistics that have been quoted. If we go by the Wikipedia article for fire-arm related deaths/100,000 people we see that the US is at 10.54/100,000, with homicide related to guns being at 3.6/100,000. Canada, by comparison is 1.97/100,000, with .38/100,000 for homicide.

If we take statistics used for the 173 vice 8800 number than we can assume that the population of Canada is approximately 1/10 or 10% that of the US. Therein, if all things were equal, Canada should have 1730 gun incidents if corrected for population variance. Therein, the true statistical variance is the difference of 7070. The 7070 can only be explained by "other factors", namely culture differences, gun ownership, and crime.

Interestingly- the firearm related deaths by state /100,000 people is generally higher in smaller, rural, states than in larger urban ones (urban for this being California, Illinois, Massachusetts, and new York with the exception of Texas which is over 10/100,000).

So, population difference doesn't explain the variance. It's a mix of gun ownership, culture, and crime (though not completely urban crime- the three highest gun violence areas per capita in the US are rural counties in Mississippi and Alabama).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

 

[McG]

I think that gun violence in America is as much about culture as it is about gun control. 

That is true.  Another facet of American culture (it seems to me) is a tendency to be much more litigious.  And the first class action law suite against bumpstock manufacturer is launched ... not for the casualties but for those who suffered stress from witnessing the incident. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/3795911/las-vegas-shooting-victims-lawsuit-bump-stock/amp/

One can assume that additional lawsuits will target manufacturer and vendors on behalf of casualties and their families.  Depending on awards handed out, this could certainly influence the availability and cost of such items in the market.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The US is neither remarkable in suicides or homicides, even with the mass shooting issue included.

 

[mariomike]

The US is neither remarkable in suicides or homicides, even with the mass shooting issue included.

In comparison to Canada:

Murder rates (per 100,000 inhabitants).

United States 4.88 ( 2015 )

Canada 1.68 ( 2014 )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

Suicides per 100,000 people per year.

United States 12.6 ( 2017 )

Canada 10.4 ( 2017 )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

 

[kkwd]

In comparison to Canada:

Murder rates (per 100,000 inhabitants).

United States 4.88 ( 2015 )

Canada 1.68 ( 2014 )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

Suicides per 100,000 people per year.

United States 12.6 ( 2017 )

Canada 10.4 ( 2017 )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

There are some warnings in the wiki articles.

Homicide:

When using the figures, any cross-national comparison should be conducted with caution because of the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in countries, the different methods of offence counting and recording and differences in the share of criminal offences that are not reported to or detected by law enforcement authorities

Suicide:

Incidence of suicide tends to be under-reported due to both cultural and social pressures,[citation needed] and possibly completely unreported in some areas. Since the data might be skewed, comparing suicide rates between nations is statistically unsound. For example, attempted suicide is illegal in Nepal and people who attempt suicide when caught are subject to imprisonment, fines or both; therefore, any suicide figures for Nepal will underestimate the incidence

As well, how much can you trust a article that says Mexico is in Central America.  >

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In comparison to Canada:

Murder rates (per 100,000 inhabitants).

United States 4.88 ( 2015 )

Canada 1.68 ( 2014 )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

Suicides per 100,000 people per year.

United States 12.6 ( 2017 )

Canada 10.4 ( 2017 )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Now add 1 million illegal migrants, stuff everyone closer to each other, crank up the racial history and see how well we do.

The US rate by UN figures is 4.68 per 100,000, about middle of the road. In actual fact the majority of the murders take place in a fraction of the country https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

Of course you could live in the socialist paradise of Venezuela with a mere 57 per 100,000 murdered

France also has more suicides than the US   

 

[mariomike]

As well, how much can you trust a article that says Mexico is in Central America.  >

The article explained, "The regions and region names in the table are based on the United Nations geo-scheme.

The United Nations geo-scheme is a system which divides the countries of the world into regional and sub-regional groups. It was devised by the United Nations Statistics Division (UNSD) based on the M49 coding classification.
The creators note that "the assignment of countries or areas to specific groupings is for statistical convenience and does not imply any assumption regarding political or other affiliation of countries or territories.

The UNSD geo-scheme does not set a standard for the entire United Nations System, and it often differs from geographic definitions used by the autonomous United Nations specialized agencies for their own organizational convenience. For instance, UNSD includes Georgia and Cyprus in Western Asia, yet the United Nations Industrial Development Organization and UNESCO include them in Europe."

This explains the United Nations geoscheme for the Americas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_geoscheme_for_the_Americas

For example, attempted suicide is illegal in Nepal and people who attempt suicide when caught are subject to imprisonment, fines or both; therefore, any suicide figures for Nepal will underestimate the incidence.

The comparison was USA and Canada.

Now add 1 million illegal migrants, stuff everyone closer to each other, crank up the racial history and see how well we do.

The US rate by UN figures is 4.68 per 100,000, about middle of the road. In actual fact the majority of the murders take place in a fraction of the country https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/

Of course you could live in the socialist paradise of Venezuela with a mere 57 per 100,000 murdered

France also has more suicides than the US 

The comparison was USA and Canada.

If you wish to go deeper into the discussion,

Suicide in the United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States

Suicide in Canada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada

List of countries by firearm-related death rate
USA 10.54
Canada 1.97