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U.S. Politics 2017 (split fm US Election: 2016)

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kkwd said:
When somebody pulls a gun to accost you on the street you have to assume they are going to shoot you in the face. Now you can take your chance and pray you don't get shot or take matters into your own hands.

I believe the only people licenced to carry firearms in the streets of the city where I reside are on-duty police* and armoured truck guards.

*Nov 5 2014
"It was revealed that the Toronto Police Union has been lobbying for a special privilege: allowing their service memb​ers to carry guns off duty."
CFRB

So, I can only rely on what I have read 1 ) and remember personally  2 ).

1 ) Police,

Somebody pulled a gun on an LAPD officer: "Anyways I says 'Yes, Sir! Whatever you say Sir.' And I gave him that gun real careful, and if he wanted my Sam Browne he could have it, and if he wanted my %$#@ing pants and my *@!% stained skivvies he could have had them too! But, he didn't and I was allowed to walk away with my life. One last thing, if he had told me to get in a car and drive, I would have done that too.

The point I'm trying to make is that you got to leave total &^$@ing authority with the cop on the street. You go telling these young tigers here to draw against a brace and you're going to be burying some of these boys one day. Cause they might be stupid enough to believe you.
You don't never draw against a guy that's got you cold, or that's got your partner cold. Sometime you might feel you can get away with it. But, normally you got to be crazy to do such a thing."
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5163PqwC6oL._SX309_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
Joseph Wambaugh, ( A  member of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD). Served 14 years, rising through the ranks from patrolman to detective sergeant. )

2) Armoured truck guards,

I was in a coffee shop years ago grabbing a coffee for my partner and myself. An armoured truck guard with a major company was doing the same thing. He was wearing a new style holster ( with a .38 in it ) instead of the old flap style. I noticed the "safety clasp" ( I'll call it ) was taped open. I said that looked like a smart idea to make for a faster draw. He said, that was not the reason he did. That he had been robbed at gunpoint several times. In each case, the robbers(s) had disarmed him, taken the money and been on their way. But, the last time, with the new holster, they could not figure how to get the gun out. He finally had to do it for them. So, to make it easier on all concerned in the future, he taped the clasp open!

I personally knew two armed guards from that company who were shot to death. 

One coming out of Knob Hill Farms in Oshawa,
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/detail.jsp?Entt=RDMDC-TSPA_0121942F&R=DC-TSPA_0121942F

The other coming out of the Toronto-Dominion Bank at the Agincourt Mall in Scarborough.
https://www.torontopolice.on.ca/homicide/cases/1980/16/b448bc814e7c1e061262ec8d96960027.jpg

Both robberies were successful. As far as I know, neither homicide was solved.

Both guards were armed, but never had a chance to draw.
 
Journeyman said:
A popular view from 20'ish years ago.  I know of one 'study' only that says anything close to this, and it's SLA Marshall's Men Against Fire, which has been pretty thoroughly discredited. 

Google " 'Men Against Fire' Discredit" if interested.

I acknowledge that Marshall's methods have been attacked if not completely discredited. That said, part of the reason that Marshall’s ratio of fire is still quoted is that there has never been much evidence from the Second World War to either corroborate or disprove his ratio of fire theory. The survey research carried out by American psychologist Samuel Stouffer and his team during the war, for example, contains no information either way on the issue of soldiers firing their weapons. No other source at the time was discussing the ratio of fire at all, it seems, so while Marshall’s credibility has been attacked, his numbers have never really been refuted with documentary evidence.

the exception is a canadian survey given to soldiers throughout 1944 and 1945 which indicates that soldier's fire too much. That said, there is little way to corroborate the findings of the study since the veracity of personnel to "tell the truth" cant be confirmed one way or the other.

So, I concede the point.
 
kkwd said:
When somebody pulls a gun to accost you on the street you have to assume they are going to shoot you in the face. Now you can take your chance and pray you don't get shot or take matters into your own hands. In the case of the video waiting for the police would not have been an option.

Why would you have to assume that they're going to shoot you in the face? Moreover, if they had a gun pointed at you, woudn't pulling your own gun just result in you actually being shot in the face?
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Why would you have to assume that they're going to shoot you in the face? Moreover, if they had a gun pointed at you, woudn't pulling your own gun just result in you actually being shot in the face?

OK I get it B45.  Discretion is the better part of valour. One must never, never be aggressive and try to do something to gain the upper hand in a crappy situation.  If we in the military adopted that option in all situations we would have a pretty useless and gutless bunch of soldiers.

Its fine for those in the Big City to just wait for the LEO's to arrive. It does not work very well out in the sticks. When you have to wait for hours for help to arrive. Sometimes you have to save your own self or those in your care. Sometimes it is better to do something rather than roll over and be a victim.

I will be damned if I just leave it up to others that will never be there in time to change the situation.
 
Jed said:
OK I get it B45.  Discretion is the better part of valour. One must never, never be aggressive and try to do something to gain the upper hand in a crappy situation.  If we in the military adopted that option in all situations we would have a pretty useless and gutless bunch of soldiers.

Its fine for those in the Big City to just wait for the LEO's to arrive. It does not work very well out in the sticks. When you have to wait for hours for help to arrive. Sometimes you have to save your own self or those in your care. Sometimes it is better to do something rather than roll over and be a victim.

I will be damned if I just leave it up to others that will never be there in time to change the situation.

Comparing reacting to a crime to combat is a poor comparison and academically. In the army there are clearly defined drills and doctrine which define the reaction to a situation and the violence is defined by national/transnational goals and leadership. If a platoon is on an advance to contact than the contact shouldn't be surprise and there's clearly defined ROE and orders that govern the reaction.

In the civilian world those parameters are set, as a society, by the government through police services. If everyone just takes the situation in their own hands than it undermines the societal construct. If you read the book,  The American Way of Strategy: U.S. Foreign Policy and the American Way of Life by Michael Lind he describes the 4 threats to the American way of life (described simply as the desire for maximum freedom from government interference and minimal foreign interference in domestic affairs). One is the "castle society". In a castle society, freedom is not taken away by the state but simply wither away because anarchic conditions. In this society, citizens spend for their own defence out of a belief that government cannot protect them. In this, the castle state is the result of the decisions of private citizens to sacrifice personal liberty and national sovereignty (including the use of violence) for personal safety. This "every house for itself" logic isn't foreign to the US (or Canada) but certainly isn't a state of affairs that should be desired.

 
You make a lot of big hand small map observations wrt my assertion that an army made up of of individuals who don’t have a controlled aggressive inclination would be a pretty ineffective fighting force. No thinking person wants a tribal outlook within our civilized culture.  No thinking person wants a bunch of sheeple in their security forces either.
 
Colin P said:
LOL even Kellerman backtracked on his stats when called out on his study.

https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kellerman-schaffer.html

http://www.guns.com/2015/08/24/kellermanns-gun-ownership-studies-after-two-decades/

http://rkba.org/research/suter/med-lit.html

So what?

Actually, in the links you provided, nowhere did I find any comment originating from Dr. Kellerman that "backtracks" on his study.  Though, I did find Schaffer's analysis (first link*) of the original study interesting, but as with most things heavily strewn with statistical analysis, it is easier read when accompanied by a good single malt or at a minimum a nice Chianti.  Maybe later.  However, Kellerman didn't seem very repentant in this 2013 JAMA article.  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1487470

It is interesting that nearly 25 years after the publication of an article in a medical journal, it (and the methodology of the study on which it was based) is still a central point in the discussion about gun control and able to raise ire on both sides of the debate.  However, my response to your previous post was not to posit the opinion put forth a quarter century ago by Kellerman et al, but to rebut your comment (at least my interpretation of it) that the Dickey Amendment was somehow a necessary instrument to curtail some kinds of nefarious acts being done by the CDC.  That's what was horseshit!

I could find and post links to numerous articles that continue to support Kellerman's NEJM article, countering the criticisms with carefully parsed language indicating what it really means or what limitations were inherent (and already stated) in Kellerman's study.  And there would be just as many, probably many more, pieces that continue to dispute Kellerman's conclusions.  I really don't give a rat's *** one way or the other.  I've owned guns (don't anymore, but that's not because of any philosophical reason), used to hunt (don't anymore, but again, not because of moral issues), but that's neither here nor there in hoping that argument should be about facts (or at least reasoned opinion) rather than insinuation of less than honourable motives - something that happens way too often on both sides of this debate.

But it would be informative to know what the late Congressman Dickey (author of the amendment in question) would have to say if he was no longer in Congress and not the "point-man for the NRA" and not beholden to their war chest.

Well, that's easy enough since he did co-author (with one of the then CDC officials directly the target of his amendment) an op-ed in the Washington Post in 2012.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-wont-know-the-cause-of-gun-violence-until-we-look-for-it/2012/07/27/gJQAPfenEX_story.html?utm_term=.9a99a8c40a05
Opinions

We won’t know the cause of gun violence until we look for it

By Jay Dickey and Mark Rosenberg July 27, 2012

Jay Dickey, a Republican and life member of the NRA, represented Arkansas in the House from 1993 to 2000. Mark Rosenberg, president and chief executive of the Task Force for Global Health, was director of the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from 1994 to 1999.

A few years ago, one of us came across a young woman who had just been hit by a car. She was the mother of two young children and one of Atlanta’s star runners. I found her unconscious and bleeding profusely from a severe head injury. She died in my arms while I tried to resuscitate her.

Her death was tragic, but it wasn’t “senseless.” In scientific terms, it was explicable. The runner, who had competed in 15 marathons and broken many records, wore no lights or reflective vest in the early-morning darkness; she crossed the street within crosswalk lines that had faded to near-invisibility; there were no speed bumps on this wide, flat street to slow cars down.

Scientists don’t view traffic injuries as “senseless” or “accidental” but as events susceptible to understanding and prevention. Urban planners, elected officials and highway engineers approach such injuries by asking four questions: What is the problem? What are the causes? Have effective interventions been discovered? Can we install these interventions in our community?

The federal government has invested billions to understand the causes of motor vehicle fatalities and, with that knowledge, has markedly reduced traffic deaths in the United States. Since the mid-1970s, research has inspired such interventions as child restraints, seat belts, frontal air bags, a minimum drinking age and motorcycle helmets. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates that 366,000 lives were saved through such efforts from 1975 to 2009.

Through the same scientific, evidence-based approach, our country has made progress understanding and preventing violence. Once upon a time, law-abiding citizens believed that violence generated by evil always had existed and always would exist. By the mid-20th century, that sense of fatalism was yielding to discoveries by social scientists, physicians and epidemiologists. Now a body of knowledge exists that makes it clear that an event such as the mass shooting in Aurora, Colo., was not a “senseless” occurrence as random as a hurricane or earthquake but, rather, has underlying causes that can be understood and used to prevent similar mass shootings.

We also recognize different types of violence, including child abuse and neglect, sexual assault, elder abuse, suicide and economically and politically motivated violence. Like motor vehicle injuries, violence exists in a cause-and-effect world; things happen for predictable reasons. By studying the causes of a tragic — but not senseless — event, we can help prevent another.

Recently, some have observed that no policies can reduce firearm fatalities, but that’s not quite true. Research-based observations are available. Childproof locks, safe-storage devices and waiting periods save lives.

But it’s vital to understand why we know more and spend so much more on preventing traffic fatalities than on preventing gun violence, even though firearm deaths (31,347 in 2009, the most recent year for which statistics are available) approximate the number of motor vehicle deaths (32,885 in 2010).

From 1986 to 1996, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) sponsored high-quality, peer-reviewed research into the underlying causes of gun violence. People who kept guns in their homes did not — despite their hopes — gain protection, according to research published in the New England Journal of Medicine. Instead, residents in homes with a gun faced a 2.7-fold greater risk of homicide and a 4.8-fold greater risk of suicide. The National Rifle Association moved to suppress the dissemination of these results and to block funding of future government research into the causes of firearm injuries.

One of us served as the NRA’s point person in Congress and submitted an amendment to an appropriations bill that removed $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget, the amount the agency’s injury center had spent on firearms-related research the previous year. This amendment, together with a stipulation that “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control,” sent a chilling message.

Since the legislation passed in 1996, the United States has spent about $240 million a year on traffic safety research, but there has been almost no publicly funded research on firearm injuries.

As a consequence, U.S. scientists cannot answer the most basic question: What works to prevent firearm injuries? We don’t know whether having more citizens carry guns would decrease or increase firearm deaths; or whether firearm registration and licensing would make inner-city residents safer or expose them to greater harm. We don’t know whether a ban on assault weapons or large-capacity magazines, or limiting access to ammunition, would have saved lives in Aurora or would make it riskier for people to go to a movie. And we don’t know how to effectively restrict access to firearms by those with serious mental illness

What we do know is that firearm injuries will continue to claim far too many lives at home, at school, at work and at the movies until we start asking and answering the hard questions. “Such violence, such evil is senseless,” President Obama said last week. What is truly senseless is to decry these deaths as senseless when the tools exist to understand causes and to prevent these deadly effects.

We were on opposite sides of the heated battle 16 years ago, but we are in strong agreement now that scientific research should be conducted into preventing firearm injuries and that ways to prevent firearm deaths can be found without encroaching on the rights of legitimate gun owners. The same evidence-based approach that is saving millions of lives from motor-vehicle crashes, as well as from smoking, cancer and HIV/AIDS, can help reduce the toll of deaths and injuries from gun violence.

Most politicians fear talking about guns almost as much as they would being confronted by one, but these fears are senseless. We must learn what we can do to save lives. It is like the answer to the question “When is the best time to plant a tree?” The best time to start was 20 years ago; the second-best time is now.
 
Jed said:
You make a lot of big hand small map observations wrt my assertion that an army made up of of individuals who don’t have a controlled aggressive inclination would be a pretty ineffective fighting force. No thinking person wants a tribal outlook within our civilized culture.  No thinking person wants a bunch of sheeple in their security forces either.

I don't think there was any big hand small map, at least not intentionally. 

I stated that criminal acts and combat are different and have different controls. As for any assertion that giving your wallet, etc if a gun was pulled on you means you wouldn't be a good soldier, I disagree. The controls of the two situations are different. Soldiers in combat surrender if surrounded and in a hopeless situation if needed.

Statistically the evidence shows that escalation of a situation by an untrained individual leads to higher murder and death rates. The average citizen isn't trained in dealing with crimes, hostage negotiation, investigations, or anything like that.

What the advocation of property protection implies is a castle society mentality. "Sheeple" in the forces and society are bad. This can include those who refuse to take a rational look at gin statistics as well as anyone else.
 
A criminal needs some cash for a party he is having. He happens upon a house he wants to rob but he thinks twice, maybe this homeowner has a gun he thinks. A crime was averted by just the thought the criminal might run into lethal force. A criminal is wandering the streets looking for people to rob because that is his job. He sees a well dressed person and thinks they might be a good target. Then he sees that person might be armed and thinks twice. Crime averted.
 
kkwd said:
A criminal is wandering the streets looking for people to rob because that is his job. He sees a well dressed person and thinks they might be a good target. Then he sees that person might be armed and thinks twice. Crime averted.

You must live in a different jurisdiction than I do.

In the city I live, only on-duty police officers and armoured truck guards are armed.

 
mariomike said:
You must live in a different jurisdiction than I do.

In the city I live, only on-duty police officers and armoured truck guards are armed.

Criminals don't have guns in your small town?
 
kkwd said:
Criminals don't have guns in your small town?

I live in Canada.

If you wish to discuss our gun politics,

Canadian Politics > The Great Gun Control Debate 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/28692.3175
151 pages.
 
mariomike said:
I live in Canada.

If you wish to discuss our gun politics,

Canadian Politics > The Great Gun Control Debate 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/28692.3175
151 pages.

I've contributed to that thread.
 
mariomike said:
I live in Canada.

If you wish to discuss our gun politics,

Canadian Politics > The Great Gun Control Debate 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/28692.3175
151 pages.

In fairness here you brought up the city you live in first.

 
Blackadder1916 said:
So what?

Actually, in the links you provided, nowhere did I find any comment originating from Dr. Kellerman that "backtracks" on his study.  Though, I did find Schaffer's analysis (first link*) of the original study interesting, but as with most things heavily strewn with statistical analysis, it is easier read when accompanied by a good single malt or at a minimum a nice Chianti.  Maybe later.  However, Kellerman didn't seem very repentant in this 2013 JAMA article.  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1487470

It is interesting that nearly 25 years after the publication of an article in a medical journal, it (and the methodology of the study on which it was based) is still a central point in the discussion about gun control and able to raise ire on both sides of the debate.  However, my response to your previous post was not to posit the opinion put forth a quarter century ago by Kellerman et al, but to rebut your comment (at least my interpretation of it) that the Dickey Amendment was somehow a necessary instrument to curtail some kinds of nefarious acts being done by the CDC.  That's what was horseshit!

I could find and post links to numerous articles that continue to support Kellerman's NEJM article, countering the criticisms with carefully parsed language indicating what it really means or what limitations were inherent (and already stated) in Kellerman's study.  And there would be just as many, probably many more, pieces that continue to dispute Kellerman's conclusions.  I really don't give a rat's *** one way or the other.  I've owned guns (don't anymore, but that's not because of any philosophical reason), used to hunt (don't anymore, but again, not because of moral issues), but that's neither here nor there in hoping that argument should be about facts (or at least reasoned opinion) rather than insinuation of less than honourable motives - something that happens way too often on both sides of this debate.
/27/gJQAPfenEX_story.html?utm_term=.9a99a8c40a05

You can look at this http://guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.html
some more links here https://www.reddit.com/r/progun/comments/2q4wuu/help_me_list_all_the_flaws_in_the_kellerman_study/

Using the CDC to study one of the most contentious issues in the US, is sure to damage their main goals which is to prevent the spread of disease. If the CDC is seen to be be biased one way or another, then people will be reluctant to deal with it on other issues. Since most Farmers/ranchers in the US likely are gun owners, they may be hostile/uncooperative to any CDC researcher attempting to collect data on non-gun issues, as they represent a hostile organization.

If you want to get to the root of the problems, first you have to have a impartial committee (hard to do) and a clear mandate. If the mandate is to stop gun usage, you already lost 1/2 the people. If you set out to study all the factors leading to homicides regardless of methods, then you get buy in, at first. However based on homicide clustering in the US, the answers are likely to be very uncomfortable and no simple and easy fix. If you wish to have the group study all common factors in mass killings, without setting any constraint on methods, then you likely get buy in. 
 
kkwd said:
A criminal needs some cash for a party he is having. He happens upon a house he wants to rob but he thinks twice, maybe this homeowner has a gun he thinks. A crime was averted by just the thought the criminal might run into lethal force. A criminal is wandering the streets looking for people to rob because that is his job. He sees a well dressed person and thinks they might be a good target. Then he sees that person might be armed and thinks twice. Crime averted.

Or not. There's no rational way of making that conclusion. One could put up one of those "this house doesn't call 911" signs I suppose but would the criminal, if desperate know there was actually a gun or take a chance that the sign was just there? What if the criminal thought there'd be a gun so brought his own gun? What if the thought that there was a gun put the criminal on alert, raising the chance of firing? Hypothetical scenarios are poor at making analytical cases. Like if you see snow- it doesn't mean that the earth isn't slowly warming
 
kkwd said:
Criminals don't have guns in your small town?

In Australia,  one of the corrolaries to enhanced gun control was that the price of black market weapons jumped exponentially to the $45,000/ weapon range. This controlled even criminal weapons as they out priced low/med level criminals (ie- anyone breaking into your house outside of you being a drug kingpin)
 
kkwd said:
.....Crime averted.
Awww.... what a sweet 'happily ever after' fairy tale.  No wonder America is the crime-free paradise that it is.  :nod:



(Bonus points: no actual facts or statistics were disturbed in making your post!)
 
Ultimately it goes both ways. Broadcasting you have firearms will either serve to attract criminals looking to steal firearms OR  make criminals think twice and look for a softer target.

I always found the mentality that having a gun for self defense might make a criminal choose to shoot you instead of "just" rob you silly. To me that sounds like carrying condoms to offer to a rapist or shitting yourself as a means of self defense.
Lots of videos of Americans successfully using firearms to defend themselves.  It's unfortunate we don't have the same easy ability to defend ourselves here. 
 
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