U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread
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This is the guy from the 82nd right? Hes such a moron, I really hope we turn him back to the states. He was afraid of commiting atrocities? I think Infanteer summed it up by saying hes a coward. How could you not expect to be deployed when youre in a elite fighting unit in the post 9/11 days
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Just remember we have them too. Cowards that is.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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Wait for it....
Well, duh.
I really hate the use of the word coward to paint objectors and protesters, , as there are many conscientious objectors who are extremely brave, perhaps even as brave as combat infantrymen.
This character, however, does not appear to be one of them.
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Infanteer said:
couldn't have said it better myself
Well hold on a second guys - lets put ourselves in his place for a moment. Its easy to call someone a coward, but if you stop and think about it - and show some empathy - maybe his actions thus far have been quite courageous, if of a different kind. (Just feeding debate here).
Lets put ourselves in his position: Your country tells you your going to war because the enemy country possesses weapons of mass destruction, and is an immediate threat. Hoo-ah - awesome, thats what we're here to do. Then you learn that there aren't any weapons of mass destruction, but in fact the reason you were over there was to remove Saddam, who was an evil tyrant. Okay, fair enough - both are good causes. Removing Saddam from power was NEEDED, and if in fact there were WMD in country, than there was a NEED to remove them also.
He managed to become a paratrooper, so he's obviously not a pussy. I know the American standards aren't as high as other countries, especially these days with their drive to fill deployable positions, but still - he managed to make it to the Airborne, which is commendable. The whole purpose of having a system where people can register themselves as "conciencious objectors" is so that when they really disagree with something, they can object. He tried to utilize that system, he tried to go through his chain of command, he tried to deal with it administratively - but to no avail. So, standing firm on his beliefs, he went AWOL - and brought his family to Canada.
Now I'm not saying whether I agree with his beliefs or not - what I'm saying, is that he KNOWS the severity and consequences if his plea is rejected, and he KNOWS how dismal the rest of his life will be if he ends up going back to the US. But despite the huge risks, he stood firm on his beliefs, he didn't compromise his perception of integrity, and he didn't cave in to pressure from his chain of command. He believed something was morally wrong, and he refused to carry it out. How does that make him a coward?
I agree that - on the surface, in the "black and white" world - he may be labelled as a coward. But if you think of the courage to stand up for his beliefs despite the legal and social consequences of doing so - he certainly isn't a coward. He said he joined to defend his country from all enemies, not carry out acts of aggression. WHETHER OR NOT WE AGREE WITH HIS MOTIVES, AND WHAT HE CONSIDERS NEEDED AND NOT NEEDED, we still have to understand that he took a stand for his beliefs - despite much criticism. Remember guys, the laws of God are higher than the laws of man. (Not to sound too religious or anything, but there are some things more important than words on a piece of paper).
Lets put ourselves in his position: Your country tells you your going to war because the enemy country possesses weapons of mass destruction, and is an immediate threat. Hoo-ah - awesome, thats what we're here to do. Then you learn that there aren't any weapons of mass destruction, but in fact the reason you were over there was to remove Saddam, who was an evil tyrant. Okay, fair enough - both are good causes. Removing Saddam from power was NEEDED, and if in fact there were WMD in country, than there was a NEED to remove them also.
He managed to become a paratrooper, so he's obviously not a pussy. I know the American standards aren't as high as other countries, especially these days with their drive to fill deployable positions, but still - he managed to make it to the Airborne, which is commendable. The whole purpose of having a system where people can register themselves as "conciencious objectors" is so that when they really disagree with something, they can object. He tried to utilize that system, he tried to go through his chain of command, he tried to deal with it administratively - but to no avail. So, standing firm on his beliefs, he went AWOL - and brought his family to Canada.
Now I'm not saying whether I agree with his beliefs or not - what I'm saying, is that he KNOWS the severity and consequences if his plea is rejected, and he KNOWS how dismal the rest of his life will be if he ends up going back to the US. But despite the huge risks, he stood firm on his beliefs, he didn't compromise his perception of integrity, and he didn't cave in to pressure from his chain of command. He believed something was morally wrong, and he refused to carry it out. How does that make him a coward?
I agree that - on the surface, in the "black and white" world - he may be labelled as a coward. But if you think of the courage to stand up for his beliefs despite the legal and social consequences of doing so - he certainly isn't a coward. He said he joined to defend his country from all enemies, not carry out acts of aggression. WHETHER OR NOT WE AGREE WITH HIS MOTIVES, AND WHAT HE CONSIDERS NEEDED AND NOT NEEDED, we still have to understand that he took a stand for his beliefs - despite much criticism. Remember guys, the laws of God are higher than the laws of man. (Not to sound too religious or anything, but there are some things more important than words on a piece of paper).
Jungle
Army.ca Veteran
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If he really was courageous, he would stand up and face the consequences of his decision in his own country. He is a coward for running away from his responsibilities...
There is a lesson in this though: this is what happens when people join the Military for selfish reasons. "I want MY degree and I want THEM to pay for it" or " I wanna go on tour so I can buy ME a new car".
Sounds familiar ?? There is more to the Military then pay and benefits; this is clearly explained during the recruiting process.
There is a lesson in this though: this is what happens when people join the Military for selfish reasons. "I want MY degree and I want THEM to pay for it" or " I wanna go on tour so I can buy ME a new car".
Sounds familiar ?? There is more to the Military then pay and benefits; this is clearly explained during the recruiting process.
Gunnar
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I believe the oath says something about "all enemies, foreign and domestic". I don't think it says anything about being able to decide on your own what that entails, and when you choose to follow orders.
So maybe he's not a coward. Maybe he just betrayed his comrades, and his sworn word. Maybe his beliefs are every bit as valuable as his oaths. How do you "take a stand" while running backwards so fast?
I mean, wilfully disobeying an order or betraying his oath is one thing. To claim REFUGEE status in a foreign country he now decides he likes better because he wishes to escape the consequences of his actions? How is that brave? How is that not compromising integrity? How is treating a sworn oath as "words on a piece of paper" an example of integrity? Integrity is a principle, one of those things that is supposed to be more important that words on paper....it's what makes words on paper MEAN something. It's what makes the measure of a man...if you can commit his words to paper and they MEAN something, you've got a person of integrity. If the words are meaningless, then so is his integrity.
I swear on a stack of bibles I will defend the country....and if I run away like a pansy, and try to get out of the consequences of my actions, well, then, that's integrity...it's just different integrity, right?
Hypocrisy is integrity. Freedom is slavery. Truth is a lie. Let's all cheer for his "integrity".
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That's one prospect that has come out of this in the end, following orders and not following orders.
You'll hafto fight a war or conflict sooner or later, and it ain't gonna be pretty. But I would imagen it be hard for anyone to accept the fact that innocent people will die in war. War is hell - it's called that for a reason. Innocent people die, good people die, bad people die. People will be hurt, injured, maimed, no matter what you can do. If you do not like these facts then DO NOT take part in joining the military (Although for drafts that's a whole other arguement).
If you were given an order such as 'apparently' the people at abu-whatever the hell the prison was called to undress inmates and make them some stupid fraternity prank of a naked pyramid and take pictures (I havn't followed that story in awhile so things have probably changed) stand up to the CO who tells you that, or report them. If it's against the Geneva Convention in anyway and do not wanna face possible court marshal or war crimes trials do not do that shit. I promise myself if I ever had to be put into a situation like that I would stand up and simply say no, throw me in the damn brig if you want. But I'll be damned to lower myself to those levels for a laugh or a good photo shoot among friends.
Now what he said about shooting up civvi's, well.. thats a tough decision but as unfortnate as it sounds you should follow your orders. Surely there were signs depicting "Stop or slow down" or whatever and what not. But given the situation following orders would be best.
My long winded 2 cents, forgive me if I come off at a bad note or anything... faults of being a gonnabee and some things might not of come out right, tendency for that heh. :warstory:
You'll hafto fight a war or conflict sooner or later, and it ain't gonna be pretty. But I would imagen it be hard for anyone to accept the fact that innocent people will die in war. War is hell - it's called that for a reason. Innocent people die, good people die, bad people die. People will be hurt, injured, maimed, no matter what you can do. If you do not like these facts then DO NOT take part in joining the military (Although for drafts that's a whole other arguement).
If you were given an order such as 'apparently' the people at abu-whatever the hell the prison was called to undress inmates and make them some stupid fraternity prank of a naked pyramid and take pictures (I havn't followed that story in awhile so things have probably changed) stand up to the CO who tells you that, or report them. If it's against the Geneva Convention in anyway and do not wanna face possible court marshal or war crimes trials do not do that shit. I promise myself if I ever had to be put into a situation like that I would stand up and simply say no, throw me in the damn brig if you want. But I'll be damned to lower myself to those levels for a laugh or a good photo shoot among friends.
Now what he said about shooting up civvi's, well.. thats a tough decision but as unfortnate as it sounds you should follow your orders. Surely there were signs depicting "Stop or slow down" or whatever and what not. But given the situation following orders would be best.
My long winded 2 cents, forgive me if I come off at a bad note or anything... faults of being a gonnabee and some things might not of come out right, tendency for that heh. :warstory:
In response to Gunnar's post - "integrity is what makes words MORE than just ink on paper", or something to that avail.
True - I agree. People's integrity is what makes things stick, and what makes words more than just ink on paper. But there is a principal in it also. Try putting yourself in his shoes for a moment - you gonna do everything they tell you to, just because you signed a piece of paper?
I understand and agree with you that integrity is critical to all aspects of life, especially in this line of work. However - when you you draw the line between remaining loyal to your oath, and sacrificing loyalty to yourself? I'm not talking about materialistic reasons for joining, such as "I want to join the army so THEY can pay for my degree," Or - "I wanna go on tour so I can buy MYSELF a car". I'm talking -- when do you draw the line and say, "This goes against every morality I've been brought up with, this is wrong, they lied to us, this isn't what I signed up for, I gravely disagree - and I'm going to formally object". Remember, the REASON THEY HAVE a system where people can object is so they can do just that, OBJECT.
I'm not trying to sound like a coward here either, I'm just feeding the debate. The whole purpose of having a system where people can object, is so they can object. If people's objections aren't taken seriously, and are thrown out - wtf is the point of having a system where people can object? If he believes deep down that the mission he is assigned is morally wrong, and goes against his moral fabric - isn't it his duty in some small way to object? And perhaps he should have stayed in the US to face the consequences of his actions, but he also has a family - a Wife and small child - perhaps that played a role in his decision to flee to Canada? He could either be cut down and possibly imprisoned in the "Land of the Free" for objecting to something he feels is wrong, and put his family through a very rough time - or he could risk it, and try going to another country where he wouldn't have to leave his family.
I'm just feeding debate here guys, but think about it. Really think about it - use your hearts in addition to your brains. Any of you whom have families I'm sure understand at least in some small part his desire not to leave them. I'm not trying to blindly defend this man's every action or accusation, HOWEVER; it is important for us to realize that perhaps his reasons go deeper than just the surface.
True - I agree. People's integrity is what makes things stick, and what makes words more than just ink on paper. But there is a principal in it also. Try putting yourself in his shoes for a moment - you gonna do everything they tell you to, just because you signed a piece of paper?
I understand and agree with you that integrity is critical to all aspects of life, especially in this line of work. However - when you you draw the line between remaining loyal to your oath, and sacrificing loyalty to yourself? I'm not talking about materialistic reasons for joining, such as "I want to join the army so THEY can pay for my degree," Or - "I wanna go on tour so I can buy MYSELF a car". I'm talking -- when do you draw the line and say, "This goes against every morality I've been brought up with, this is wrong, they lied to us, this isn't what I signed up for, I gravely disagree - and I'm going to formally object". Remember, the REASON THEY HAVE a system where people can object is so they can do just that, OBJECT.
I'm not trying to sound like a coward here either, I'm just feeding the debate. The whole purpose of having a system where people can object, is so they can object. If people's objections aren't taken seriously, and are thrown out - wtf is the point of having a system where people can object? If he believes deep down that the mission he is assigned is morally wrong, and goes against his moral fabric - isn't it his duty in some small way to object? And perhaps he should have stayed in the US to face the consequences of his actions, but he also has a family - a Wife and small child - perhaps that played a role in his decision to flee to Canada? He could either be cut down and possibly imprisoned in the "Land of the Free" for objecting to something he feels is wrong, and put his family through a very rough time - or he could risk it, and try going to another country where he wouldn't have to leave his family.
I'm just feeding debate here guys, but think about it. Really think about it - use your hearts in addition to your brains. Any of you whom have families I'm sure understand at least in some small part his desire not to leave them. I'm not trying to blindly defend this man's every action or accusation, HOWEVER; it is important for us to realize that perhaps his reasons go deeper than just the surface.
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CBH99 said:
Ok.
I'm trying to do this empathy thing. Maybe he should have empathized with his squadmates who came to depend on him as part of a team; obviously he didn't really give a shit about them since he left their ass exposed while he beetled off to Toronto.
Do you think he had that hindsight going into the war? Remember, the WMD thing only became an issue after they were shipped to Syria....err....failed to show up in occupied Iraq.
How do you know that? Or are you talking out of your ass. I have a good buddy (a member of this forum actually) who just got out of the CF and is now Airborne qualified and on his way to the SF. He'd beg to differ about your perception on standards.
Which probably should have made him more cognisant of what he was going to do.
He tried to do it after he figured he would be put into harms way. He didn't seem to do much "conscientious objecting" when the Army was paying him well and providing him with great benefits for jumping out of planes and playing with neat kit.
So, when he realized the Army was no longer beneficial to him, he ejected and ran away from his responsibilities.
I don't know where you get your definition of "courage" and "cowardice" from, but it's not from the same book I do.
Courage usually indicates a measure of self-sacrifice (perhaps the ultimate sacrifice) for others. What this guy has done has put "self-preservation" on a pedestal over his Country, the Army, and most importantly, his mates. I don't care if he's standing up for how he feels - he signed the dotted line and the Army held up it's end of the bargain; when the balloon went up he shirked from his legal obligations as a professional soldier and abandoned his team.
Where you find courage in that, I don't know - but if you find it acceptable, then I hope you stay away from my Army.
And how, being in the 82nd Airborne, do you think he expected to defend the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic? By talking to them nicely or giving them MREs and a few bucks? He knew from day 1 what was expected of him. The fact that he waited until after being informed of his deployment only means that not only is he a coward, but he is a hypocrite as well.
Taking a stand on your belief is besides the point. The rednecks in Texas who dragged the black kid from the bumper of their pickup were also "standing up for their beliefs" - which happened to be racially biased. Its the quality of his beliefs that count - and as far as I'm concerned, this guy doesn't rate the paper his story is printed on.
Well, I fail to see how any notion of "God" or "divinity" plays into this at all.
JEREMEY HINZMAN - YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK; GOODBYE....
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There is civil disobedience. That is what US "draft dodgers" of the Vietnam era were engaging in. Canada abetted that. I know there is not much sympathy for draft dodgers here. Understandable given the audience. However, there is a fundamental difference between an individual that chooses to flee when compelled to serve in his nation's armed forces, and one who flees after volunteering for his nation's armed forces, when they get committed to combat.
If Hinzman truly had courage of conviction he would face the consequences of his nation's legal system. Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali did. Martin Luther King did. Many greater men did.
I don't see civil disobedience in the actions of Hinzmann and co. What I see is an opportunist who is attempting to capitalise on history. I see an individual who mocks Canadian soldiers, who volunteered, and who missed the birth of a child, or in some cases will never see that child grow up. I see a selfish man. If he was a true CO, he would do what so many have done before - serve his country in a non-combatant role and risk his life alongside the soldiers he once committed to.
He may not really be a coward, but he is certainly selfish.
Acorn
If Hinzman truly had courage of conviction he would face the consequences of his nation's legal system. Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali did. Martin Luther King did. Many greater men did.
I don't see civil disobedience in the actions of Hinzmann and co. What I see is an opportunist who is attempting to capitalise on history. I see an individual who mocks Canadian soldiers, who volunteered, and who missed the birth of a child, or in some cases will never see that child grow up. I see a selfish man. If he was a true CO, he would do what so many have done before - serve his country in a non-combatant role and risk his life alongside the soldiers he once committed to.
He may not really be a coward, but he is certainly selfish.
Acorn
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Here's my Take
If he was so against the war and decided morally that he couldn't go to Iraq, then he should of stayed in the USA and taken the consequences for his action(probably only a year in jail not bad considering what he is facing now). But instead of taking the moral high ground, this soldier decided to run away(to Canada). This is why I consider him a coward, an honorable man stands by his believes even when he could be penalized for them. Also their should be no comparison to Vietnam draft dodgers because they were drafted into the army, they didn't join by choice. I say send him back.....
Just My Two Cents(Its been an interesting topic to talk about in my poli science class)
If he was so against the war and decided morally that he couldn't go to Iraq, then he should of stayed in the USA and taken the consequences for his action(probably only a year in jail not bad considering what he is facing now). But instead of taking the moral high ground, this soldier decided to run away(to Canada). This is why I consider him a coward, an honorable man stands by his believes even when he could be penalized for them. Also their should be no comparison to Vietnam draft dodgers because they were drafted into the army, they didn't join by choice. I say send him back.....
Just My Two Cents(Its been an interesting topic to talk about in my poli science class)
E
elbarto
Guest
Sixty minutes had a feature on the deserters this evening. It included interviews with Jeremy Hinzman and two others who have come to Canada. All are seeking refugee status. It was also mentioned that there is upwards of five thousand other deserters at this time - although most are not in Canada.
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Well it's pretty obvious this is opportunism.
This didn't come up until the other story came up about the soliders talking about atrocities.
As I see it he's had three chances to take the upper road:
1) Not joining the army in the first place, or discharging after seeing all the mean things they say at bootcamp.
2) Applying for Conscientius objector status (I've heard it's not impossible to get) while still in the army.
3) Doing what Muhammad Ali/ MLK Jr. etc. have done and stood their ground and faced the consequences which is what civil disobedience is as far as I know.
As it stands, deserters is one of the few things I'm radically hardline about. Short drop/quick stop.
This didn't come up until the other story came up about the soliders talking about atrocities.
As I see it he's had three chances to take the upper road:
1) Not joining the army in the first place, or discharging after seeing all the mean things they say at bootcamp.
2) Applying for Conscientius objector status (I've heard it's not impossible to get) while still in the army.
3) Doing what Muhammad Ali/ MLK Jr. etc. have done and stood their ground and faced the consequences which is what civil disobedience is as far as I know.
As it stands, deserters is one of the few things I'm radically hardline about. Short drop/quick stop.
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This puke is a self-fish, hypocritical, COWARD, plain and simple. He admits on his website http://www.jeremyhinzman.net that he joined the Army for pragmatic reasons (ie he liked and wanted all the benefits, the US Army doles out). He felt uncomfortable yelling 'Trained to kill and kill we will' and the he felt uncomfortable with the idea that he might actually have to take someone elses life. Gee, i went the the US Army website and what do I see, well a heading called "What's it like being a soldier?" and right under that a link for Basic COMBAT Training (note the emphasis on the word "combat"). What did he think he was joining the Peace Corps. No cause they don't pay your school for you. What else did I see, oh the "Airborne incentive bonus" of $3000.00, just for volunteering to go to jump school, if you come into the army right off the street. But no, I don't suppose he would have volunteered for airborne duty soley for the extra cash, not knowing he might actually have to fight. Lets see here, 9 weeks of Basic, another 8-24 for trade training (I don't know what trade he was) and another 3 weeks for jump school. Looks like a minimum of 20 weeks training, and only after he had completed all his training, firmly cementing him into the army, he decided that he no longer liked the prospect of killing. Come on he had at least 5 months to say to himself you know what, maybe I should just take the financial hit and leave, because I don't like the thought of killing people. That would have been the honourable thing to do. But he decided to stay, and hopefully skirt by as CO, collect his benfits and leave. "I signed up to defend the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic -- not to carry out acts of aggression," Look at his own statement, I mean you join the army to defend your country, but you will not act aggressively towards that defence. What was he planing to do use harsh language? Appeal to the intellectual/ethical/moral being of Bin Laden and his ilk.
Bottom line is this kid and others who follow him are freeloading, cowards. They should be sent back to the states and accept their punishment like the MEN they obviously are not.
Bottom line is this kid and others who follow him are freeloading, cowards. They should be sent back to the states and accept their punishment like the MEN they obviously are not.
Hey Infanteer - not to sound disrespectful of a staff member like yourself, but in your comment "I hope you stay away from my army" - I've already been in your army for 4yrs now (Reserve). So, no disrespect - but get to know someone before you chomp down on em'.
I was trying to feed debate. There are two sides to every story - and always a multitude of ways to look at something. I was simply trying to expose what some of those other ways might be. Its easy to call him a coward and close the book on em', sure. I was merely trying to expand on a sense of empathy - NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SYMPATHY - as to why he might have chosen the actions he did. Did he demonstrate courage in regards to his unit and fellow soldiers? No. But did he demonstrate courage in regards to standing up for personal beliefs? Perhaps. I'm just saying - there are a lot of ways to look at a situation. Remember, perception is reality - if he perceives things differently than us, than obviously he's going to react differently.
Just trying to feed debate is all. :threat:
I was trying to feed debate. There are two sides to every story - and always a multitude of ways to look at something. I was simply trying to expose what some of those other ways might be. Its easy to call him a coward and close the book on em', sure. I was merely trying to expand on a sense of empathy - NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SYMPATHY - as to why he might have chosen the actions he did. Did he demonstrate courage in regards to his unit and fellow soldiers? No. But did he demonstrate courage in regards to standing up for personal beliefs? Perhaps. I'm just saying - there are a lot of ways to look at a situation. Remember, perception is reality - if he perceives things differently than us, than obviously he's going to react differently.
Just trying to feed debate is all. :threat:
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CBH99 said:
Let me ask you this. Have you looked at Infanteer's profile, or the profile of anyone else here for that matter. Sorry bud. It takes more than showing up for a bunch of Tuesday nights for a couple of years, to make a soldier.
You might want to remember that the next time you start claiming to be one too.
If he refused to do his duty as an American soldier I believe he would have been (or could've been) charged with cowardice-A much worse crime than simple desertion, and the penalties are far higher. Death in the most extreme circumstances!
Well, if any good will come of this at least the rest of the guys in his unit won't have to worry about someone that could've cut and run once the sh*t hit the fan in-theatre...Or go to pieces because he couldn't face the prospect of not coming through the tour unscathed. That is the part of soldiering that apparently didn't sink in when he was enquiring about the free education he got.
I believe that the main issue in this situation-his knowing, understanding, and accepting- the obligations of voluntarily joining a volunteer army. The army fulfilled their pat of the deal. He got an education and a good, decent and honourable employment, a good home for his family, a good support network and all of the other beni's that come along with being in the US Army.
However when it came time for him to do his bit he chucked in the towel...Kind of makes anything he says at that point rather suspect, wouldn't you agree?!
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