Trying to start a reserve unit

[Colin Parkinson]

Sorry I was not suggesting a "National Guard" approach, just that having political support/pressure helps. Plus if they publicly mention the need and benefits it helps grows the support for the formation of new/reborn units.

 

[aesop081]

Forgive me but.....

In other threads we are saying that the government's ideas about forming new units all over the place is not so good......yet 13 pages here of people wanting to form a new unit........

 

[dapaterson]

Take things in context.  The Conservative party platform was to create new units in major centres where units already exist.  Quite different from creating a reserve presence in communities without any such presence currently.  (Note that I'm avoiding the word "unit" in that context - "unit" has a distinct legal meaning.  In many instances, standing up a sub-unit of an existing unit presents a better option for expansion than creating a new unit).

 

[redleafjumper]

A sub-unit of an existing unit is exactly what has been proposed.  The problem as stated earlier is that the government needs to make the political decision and allocate the resources to make it happen as no one wants to rob Peter to pay Paul.  All I can get out of this MND is that a new unit (or sub-unit ) may only be formed from existing resources if supported by the military.  Naturally, the military is not prepared to rob Peter to pay Paul, so once again it comes down to political direction and allocation of resources.

 

[George Wallace]

There are plans in the works to create new Reserve units in various locations.  In some cases they will be completely new, to accommodate some Reservists who travel great distances already to parade.  In some cases they will be completely new to to fill new or larger ORBATS.  In some cases they will be Units being 'renamed' or 'up-sized'.  There are Psy Ops and CIMIC Companies being formed for instance. 

 

[medaid]

George,

    Where are these PsyOp and CIMIC companies going to be? I heard that PsyOps was given to Quebec before? Any info would be great!

 

[George Wallace]

As I understand it (all from second hand briefs) each area will be forming a Bn that would include a PsyOps Coy, a CIMIC Coy, a MP Coy and a couple of Int Coys.  If they come to pass is the next question, as we all know how much is "subject to change".  I do know that there is an Int Coy being stood up in Ottawa.  It will be the "upsizing" of 2 Int Pl.  A serious question, however, is the infrastructure and Administration of these new organizations.  A huge quantity of funding will have to be allotted to carry out any of these plans.  It is great to go on a Recruiting Drive (both Reg and Res), but unless you can pay these people, provide them with equipment, and provide them with the facilities to be housed and trained, you have not really succeeded in doing anything relevant.   

 

[aesop081]

  Naturally, the military is not prepared to rob Peter to pay Paul,

And why should they ?  What does one more reserve sub-unit add to the big picture ? We just added the C-17 as a capability and will likely have to cut back on other things to pay for it.  That is a trade off that adds to the bigger CF picture.  I dont see one more reserve sub-unit / unit has something thats needed so bad that we should trade something for it ( specialy if its yet another unit whos type already exists in large numbers i.e. combat arms )

 

[redleafjumper]

Well, adding a sub-unit or more does add to the big picture.  One of the stated aims of the government is to increase a northern precense of our military.  Right now we have very little precense north of about the 52nd parallel and it is a big country.  People out of the larger southern centres have very little contact with their armed forces and that can result in a complacent attitude towards the military and defence issues in general.  More reserve units means more contact with friends and relatives who are at least part-time soldiers and thus an improved understanding of what the miltary does.  Community footprint isn't just a track, it is a foot that makes that track and that is a key part of building a better reserve.

Putting sub-units and units in areas where there are none would be a good thing, but, again, it requires political will.

 

[geo]

Medtech,
Psyop/CIMIC was given to LFQWA to develop an initial capacity..... not one to hold and lord overall.

The new unit we have in LFQA, reporting to the LFQA Commander is
the CSC = Capacité du soutien au commandement
it consists of
4 Int Coy
CIMIC Coy
Psyop Coy

 

[aesop081]

  Right now we have very little precense north of about the 52nd parallel and it is a big country. 

Ok, so you started this thread to create a reserve unit in the Canadian North ? How does a reserve unit in Prince George add to our presence in the arctic ? ( to use you case in this thread). Our sovereignty claim on BC isnt in question is it ?

Putting sub-units and units in areas where there are none would be a good thing, but, again, it requires political will.

It requires more than political will.  It requires cash. We are already at the point where we are sacrificing some of what we have to pay for others. So therefore we should fragment our resources even further to create units that will be half-manned, partialy trained and under-equiped just so we can have a "presence" within eyesight of John Q. Public ?

 

[redleafjumper]

Cdn aviator, I don't know why you seem intent on starting an argument, but it isn't appreciated.  Your posts have usually been much more thoughtful.

To respond to your points I started this thread to seek suggestions on how to better accomplish putting a reserve presence in Prince George, BC and to report on progress or lack thereof in that endeavour.  To that end this thread has been spectacularly successful with many helpful comments and suggestions being provided from a range of knowledgeable staff.

I agree with your point that it requires cash, even a casual read of this thread would show that point has been discussed.  I don't see it as fragmenting resources; I see it as allocating resources productively and increasing spending on military resources.  Putting a unit in Prince George does support Arctic sovereignty. True defence needs depth in resource, not just a long supply line to a soft shell.  Certainly resources such as the C-17 add both to the depth and maintaining the supply line, but unless there is more presence it really cannot be effective.

Cheers,

 

[aesop081]

Cdn aviator, I don't know why you seem intent on starting an argument, but it isn't appreciated.  Your posts have usually been much more thoughtful.

I'm not intent on an argument. If we were having this discussion face to face, you would get my true intent, which is to understnd your position, which i still do not.

To respond to your points I started this thread to seek suggestions on how to better accomplish putting a reserve presence in Prince George, BC and to report on progress or lack thereof in that endeavour.  To that end this thread has been spectacularly successful with many helpful comments and suggestions being provided from a range of knowledgeable staff.

Fair enough. I was just using it to state that i didnt see a link between a reserve unit , or lack of it, in Prince George and your comment about having very little presence above the 52nd.

  I don't see it as fragmenting resources; I see it as allocating resources productively and increasing spending on military resources. 

Wether we like it or not, the pot of military cash is finite and will most likely always be so in this country.  Until the Canadian public worries less about universal helthcare and cheap daycare, we wont see a dramatic rise in the money the government gives us. Adding units to the force structure now, fragments those resources as the budget wont rise to make up.

True defence needs depth in resource, not just a long supply line to a soft shell. 

So what does a new unit in Prince George add to our resources ?

Just asking....

 

[Franko]

Putting a unit in Prince George does support Arctic sovereignty.

Ummm...how does a unit in the middle of BC support Arctic sovereignty?

There is the initial start up cadre that would take well over 5 years to establish a unit and train and retain recruits before anything closely resemble Sov ops being dished out to said unit. Where are you going to get the cadre? Where will you run the courses while armouries are built?

We're talking a drain on resources that can be spent elsewhere, like building the base that the PM wants built in the NW passage.

I would like nothing but to see new units stood up...but not at the expense of other necessities being drained of monies/ manpower.

Regards

 

[George Wallace]

Like so many Reserve Armouries in the past twenty years, it is a simple matter of the Government renting a vacant industrial site.  Walkley Armouries in Ottawa, LGen EC Ashton Armoury in Victoria, the new Reserve Geotech Armoury in the Orleans Industrial Park are all examples of the Government renting Warehouses to convert into Armouries. 

As for Cadre, where did the Engineers come up with a cadre to create a Geo Unit in the Reserves?  Where did they come up with the Cadre to create a Reserve EW Sqn?

Where there is a will, there is a way.  Administration in the the Reserves runs at a snails pace, and is sometimes disfunctional, but things do eventually happen.......sometimes. 

 

[redleafjumper]

As stated in earlier parts of this thread, there have been many reservists and regular force retirees who have found themselves in Prince George and started to look for the reserve unit, but guess what, there isn't one.

This is an 'if you build it they will come' situation.  If the government can lay down a few hundred million in Quebec for defence, then tey can surely lay out a few million in Prince George, up north and out west, to put together a sub-unit of the Rocky Mountain Rangers.

The army's position on the matter has been very clear - at all levels up to the minister, a unit in Prince George is fine if it can be done from existing resources.  As others have stated, it is clearly not possible to build a reserve unit or sub-unit in Prince George using existing resources.  To do it would require allocation of resources and political direction.  That's about all it would take.

Cheers,

 

[geo]

Uhh... a few hundred million in Quebec?
When did this happen?... anyone ever visit the armoury of what was once 3 Field Engineer Reg't (AKA 34 CER)?
The armoury was "condemned" when I 1st joined in 1970.... and they are still occupying same said building.

 

[Michael OLeary]

As stated in earlier parts of this thread, there have been many reservists and regular force retirees who have found themselves in Prince George and started to look for the reserve unit, but guess what, there isn't one.

This is an 'if you build it they will come' situation.  If the government can lay down a few hundred million in Quebec for defence, then tey can surely lay out a few million in Prince George, up north and out west, to put together a sub-unit of the Rocky Mountain Rangers.

Your comments make me wonder in how many other communities a similar argument could be raised. Perhaps the challenge is defining why Prince George before other locations.

For example, there has long been an effort to reactivate the Halifax Rifles, without success.

Reactivate  the Halifax Rifles

The purpose of this paper is to explain the background to the initiative of the Halifax Rifles Association to have its Regiment re-activated and to provide some facts, not previously recorded, for those who have the greatest influence on the initiative’s success or failure. Among them; Military and Political  Authorities, our Nova Scotia  representative in the Federal Cabinet and MPs, and the Media.

 

[redleafjumper]

Yes, I had heard of the Halifax rifles campaign.  In a conversation I had with staff at LFRR, the same point was raised about why Prince George and not somewhere else.  The Halifax Rifle effort was mentioned and it was pointed out the the Prince George case was quite compelling for reasons articulated earlier in the thread and our presentations and persistence were the most appealling.  Of course, those compelling presentations and 20+ years of lobbying efforts still have yet to bear fruit. One joking suggestion made by the staff officer (no names, no pack drill...) at LFRR was that if we were to call a unit in Prince George the Halifax Rifles it might help make the case (ha ha).  Of course my bias is towards putting a unit in Prince George, but I do not see it as a competitive exercise, despite the need to lobby for a few crumbs from the plate to make it work.

In my opinion, it would make sense to reestablish the Yukon Regiment in Whitehorse and have another unit with a bit more teeth than the Rangers in the more northern communites such as Churchill where numbers warrant establishment of subunits.  But that would be another discussion.

As for the defence spending in Quebec there is a mention of it in this article:  http://www.thestar.com/article/240789 and there are other articles on line and discussion threads on it.  Money allocated doesn't mean money spent.

Funny thing the community is very knowledgeable about the issue and completely supportive.  I get asked about it frequently as I was last night at a friend's wedding.  Perhaps there will be some movement on it under a new MND.

 

[3rd Herd]

Redleaf,
pull a page out of PPCLI history. Offer the government a fixed amount to reestablish.

Micheal,
my opposition to the Halifax option is simply training area. Prince George and the surrounding geography/climatic conditions offer a multitude of possibilities. Halifax you are back to the on the ferry, off the ferry. Given some of the changes in global warming it might be nice to have some young bodies to fill sandbags and have the knowledge to build temporary roads, bridges etc. No I am not going so far as to suggest and Engineer unit but once upon a time we did have "pioneers".