- Reaction score
- 6
- Points
- 430
3rd Herd, I was not promoting "the Halifax option", merely presenting another example of a long running and unsuccessful fight to have a unit stood up.
Trying to start a reserve unit
- Thread starter redleafjumper
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Micheal,
Are there not several other campaigns of this nature going on ? I have seen a couple references aside from your example but it seems to be more of either a traditional /heritage issue or a back lash against Quebec spending which are the driving forces. As for bringing the Halifax issues to the forefront, you just sent me off on an hour worth of reading yet again.
Are there not several other campaigns of this nature going on ? I have seen a couple references aside from your example but it seems to be more of either a traditional /heritage issue or a back lash against Quebec spending which are the driving forces. As for bringing the Halifax issues to the forefront, you just sent me off on an hour worth of reading yet again.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Redleaf,
pull a page out of PPCLI history. Offer the government a fixed amount to reestablish.
The mayor of Prince George has gone as far as to offer to donate the land to build an armouries, build it and then lease it to DND.
That seems pretty reasonable to me as far as an offer to get it going.
pull a page out of PPCLI history. Offer the government a fixed amount to reestablish.
The mayor of Prince George has gone as far as to offer to donate the land to build an armouries, build it and then lease it to DND.
That seems pretty reasonable to me as far as an offer to get it going.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Here is a copy of a briefing paper prepared by the Mayor's local committee at the request of MP Jay Hill for the MND. It is a summaryto meet space limitations so some explanation are not as thorough as might otherwise be expected. It discusses some of the points that have be raised in recent posts, so I thought that it might be helpful to include it.
Cheers,
Redleafjumper
Briefing Paper for the Minister of National Defence
29 November 2006
Reasons for establishing a primary reserve unit in Prince George, British Columbia
There are several good reasons for establishing a primary reserve unit in Prince George. These reasons include strategic considerations, direct benefits to the Department of National Defence and benefits to the community and region. The population of Prince George at about 80,000 means that it would easily be capable of attracting sufficient numbers of persons in a suitable demographic to form at least one company sized unit. This count does not include the communities of Quesnel, Vanderhoof, Mackenzie and Hixon, all of which are in reasonable travel distance to permit interested persons to parade in Prince George. Many former military personnel, both regular and reserve, retire or transfer to Prince George, and their expertise is then lost to the military as there is no unit available in which to employ their skills. The issue of interested personnel is not in question; there are certainly sufficient numbers available to support a reserve unit.
One obstacle to forming such a unit is the lack of ready-trained command personnel available to organize and lead such a unit in its form-up stage. This is easily remedied by using persons from the community with military training, recent or not, providing them with some upgrading and making use of them until they can be brought up to speed, or replaced by better-trained persons. The easiest way to do this would be to make the unit in Prince George a platoon or company sub-unit of the Kamloops-based Rocky Mountain Rangers Regiment. Another obstacle might be the start up cost which might be estimated at approximately 2 million dollars, though this can be mitigated by making a Prince George unit a sub-unit of the regiment in Kamloops. The city has even expressed interest in constructing a suitable Drill Hall or Armoury for the purpose and renting it to the military. Such a partnership would also help reduce start-up costs.
Why Prince George and why now?
Prince George is strategically placed near the geographic centre of British Columbia. Not only is it at the heart of the rail, road and river junctions in the centre of the province, it is also in preparation to become a major interior super port. Prince George has an international airport and is undergoing expansion to handle increased traffic to and from Asia, Europe and the rest of North America. Prince George is a key centre for primary industry, commerce, transportation and communications in British Columbia. These characteristics make Prince George a logical strategic and tactical target for forces unfriendly to Canada. It is only sensible to place a reserve unit in this area to mitigate the danger of any threat to these resources.
…/2
- 2 –
Prince George is located in a relatively stable weather and geological area (interior plateau). It would logically make an effective and sensible training and staging area for troops that could be used in the event of trouble anywhere in the province where government services may be disrupted for a variety of reasons. These disruptions could include attack by enemy forces, terrorist attack, natural disaster, or need to support existing elements in other communities during military operations.
Prince George has ample room for training and suitable conditions for warfare training in harsh climatic conditions. In 1988, a unit of the Special Service Force used Prince George for Arctic training as part of NATO Exercise Lightning Strike. The conditions experienced were said to be colder and harsher than those found by units acting concurrently in Alert and in Labrador. Even as far back as the 1940’s Prince George was successfully used as a training area and divisional headquarters for approximately 12,000 troops. Prince George had a company of Rocky Mountain Rangers until Liberal defence cuts forced its disbandment in 1970.
The University of Northern British Columbia and the College of New Caledonia provide post secondary education opportunities. These institutions are likely sources of leaders for a reserve unit. The local shooting club is in the process of building a rifle range, that, when complete, will provide the ability to conduct range practices from distances from 100 to 1,200 metres. Prince George is clearly an attractive place for training areas for both reserves and regular units.
Defence policy in recent years has emphasized the importance of a community footprint for the military. Defence policy has also emphasized the importance of having more forces in northern areas of the country. An army reserve unit in Prince George would be one of the most northern primary reserve units in Canada.
A reserve unit in Prince George makes good sense for many reasons. This city has been recognized as a place to put a unit in numerous military studies, but unfortunately all of the recommendations over the years to put a unit in Prince George have been delayed or deferred until various studies or restructuring plans have been completed. The community supports having a unit in Prince George, the reserves support placing a unit in Prince George and there is clearly a reasonable defence requirement to establish a primary reserve unit in Prince George.
At this point, the decision to establish a unit in Prince George is clearly a political one. The military is engaged in other important roles and establishing a unit here is not seen as a high priority when compared with overseas missions and changes to the structure of the reserves. Canada needs a reserve unit in Prince George, the community requires one and prudent preparation demands one.
Prepared for Jay Hill, MP by Mayor’s Action Committee on the Militia, Prince George, B.C.
Cheers,
Redleafjumper
Briefing Paper for the Minister of National Defence
29 November 2006
Reasons for establishing a primary reserve unit in Prince George, British Columbia
There are several good reasons for establishing a primary reserve unit in Prince George. These reasons include strategic considerations, direct benefits to the Department of National Defence and benefits to the community and region. The population of Prince George at about 80,000 means that it would easily be capable of attracting sufficient numbers of persons in a suitable demographic to form at least one company sized unit. This count does not include the communities of Quesnel, Vanderhoof, Mackenzie and Hixon, all of which are in reasonable travel distance to permit interested persons to parade in Prince George. Many former military personnel, both regular and reserve, retire or transfer to Prince George, and their expertise is then lost to the military as there is no unit available in which to employ their skills. The issue of interested personnel is not in question; there are certainly sufficient numbers available to support a reserve unit.
One obstacle to forming such a unit is the lack of ready-trained command personnel available to organize and lead such a unit in its form-up stage. This is easily remedied by using persons from the community with military training, recent or not, providing them with some upgrading and making use of them until they can be brought up to speed, or replaced by better-trained persons. The easiest way to do this would be to make the unit in Prince George a platoon or company sub-unit of the Kamloops-based Rocky Mountain Rangers Regiment. Another obstacle might be the start up cost which might be estimated at approximately 2 million dollars, though this can be mitigated by making a Prince George unit a sub-unit of the regiment in Kamloops. The city has even expressed interest in constructing a suitable Drill Hall or Armoury for the purpose and renting it to the military. Such a partnership would also help reduce start-up costs.
Why Prince George and why now?
Prince George is strategically placed near the geographic centre of British Columbia. Not only is it at the heart of the rail, road and river junctions in the centre of the province, it is also in preparation to become a major interior super port. Prince George has an international airport and is undergoing expansion to handle increased traffic to and from Asia, Europe and the rest of North America. Prince George is a key centre for primary industry, commerce, transportation and communications in British Columbia. These characteristics make Prince George a logical strategic and tactical target for forces unfriendly to Canada. It is only sensible to place a reserve unit in this area to mitigate the danger of any threat to these resources.
…/2
- 2 –
Prince George is located in a relatively stable weather and geological area (interior plateau). It would logically make an effective and sensible training and staging area for troops that could be used in the event of trouble anywhere in the province where government services may be disrupted for a variety of reasons. These disruptions could include attack by enemy forces, terrorist attack, natural disaster, or need to support existing elements in other communities during military operations.
Prince George has ample room for training and suitable conditions for warfare training in harsh climatic conditions. In 1988, a unit of the Special Service Force used Prince George for Arctic training as part of NATO Exercise Lightning Strike. The conditions experienced were said to be colder and harsher than those found by units acting concurrently in Alert and in Labrador. Even as far back as the 1940’s Prince George was successfully used as a training area and divisional headquarters for approximately 12,000 troops. Prince George had a company of Rocky Mountain Rangers until Liberal defence cuts forced its disbandment in 1970.
The University of Northern British Columbia and the College of New Caledonia provide post secondary education opportunities. These institutions are likely sources of leaders for a reserve unit. The local shooting club is in the process of building a rifle range, that, when complete, will provide the ability to conduct range practices from distances from 100 to 1,200 metres. Prince George is clearly an attractive place for training areas for both reserves and regular units.
Defence policy in recent years has emphasized the importance of a community footprint for the military. Defence policy has also emphasized the importance of having more forces in northern areas of the country. An army reserve unit in Prince George would be one of the most northern primary reserve units in Canada.
A reserve unit in Prince George makes good sense for many reasons. This city has been recognized as a place to put a unit in numerous military studies, but unfortunately all of the recommendations over the years to put a unit in Prince George have been delayed or deferred until various studies or restructuring plans have been completed. The community supports having a unit in Prince George, the reserves support placing a unit in Prince George and there is clearly a reasonable defence requirement to establish a primary reserve unit in Prince George.
At this point, the decision to establish a unit in Prince George is clearly a political one. The military is engaged in other important roles and establishing a unit here is not seen as a high priority when compared with overseas missions and changes to the structure of the reserves. Canada needs a reserve unit in Prince George, the community requires one and prudent preparation demands one.
Prepared for Jay Hill, MP by Mayor’s Action Committee on the Militia, Prince George, B.C.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Hi Ruez,
Slowly. A fair bit depends on if the cabinet shuffle produces a new defence minister and one that is a bit more sympathetic to this area.
A present the official response is "...we'll do it if the military asks and the cost can be taken from exisiting resources...". That is a fancy way of saying it'll never happen, so we are pushing for allocation of resources and a political order to make it so.
Cheers,
Redleafjumper
Slowly. A fair bit depends on if the cabinet shuffle produces a new defence minister and one that is a bit more sympathetic to this area.
A present the official response is "...we'll do it if the military asks and the cost can be taken from exisiting resources...". That is a fancy way of saying it'll never happen, so we are pushing for allocation of resources and a political order to make it so.
Cheers,
Redleafjumper
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Redleaf,
Don't give up.... I have observed Reserve infantry units in the greater Montreal region dealing with the increased recruiting expectations coming out of NDHQ, LFQA HQ & 34 Bde HQ.
At present the Grenadier Guards, Black Watch, RMR, FMR, R de Mais are all located in the downtown core of the city of Montreal. Add to that an Engineer, Armoured, Artillery, Communications and Medical units competing for today's youths. 9 units attempting to recruit anywhere between 30 and 45 new soldiers every year. Not too bad for the trades but, 5 infantry units are hustling for the same new blood....
All units are currently looking East end, west end and "off island" - looking to revive outlying companies that were closed down in the 60s... After some fales starts and some dithering new platoons are starting up. It's all a matter of time.
Don't give up.... I have observed Reserve infantry units in the greater Montreal region dealing with the increased recruiting expectations coming out of NDHQ, LFQA HQ & 34 Bde HQ.
At present the Grenadier Guards, Black Watch, RMR, FMR, R de Mais are all located in the downtown core of the city of Montreal. Add to that an Engineer, Armoured, Artillery, Communications and Medical units competing for today's youths. 9 units attempting to recruit anywhere between 30 and 45 new soldiers every year. Not too bad for the trades but, 5 infantry units are hustling for the same new blood....
All units are currently looking East end, west end and "off island" - looking to revive outlying companies that were closed down in the 60s... After some fales starts and some dithering new platoons are starting up. It's all a matter of time.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,882
- Points
- 1,160
Interesting, didn't realize there was a sub unit of the RMR in PG back in the 70's. 
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Company A of the Rocky Mountain Rangers existed in Prince George from about 1957 (might have been earlier) to 1970, when it was closed and reformed in Kamloops. It was in an armoury located on 1st Avenue, which was damaged in a fire and later torn down for rail access.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
So Halifax gets its rifles back and Yellowknife gets something as well - what about Prince George? Congratulations to those communities on their successful efforts in re-establishing reserve forces. I am am however more than a bit disappointed with the lack of action on the Prince George file.
- Reaction score
- 6
- Points
- 430
RUEZ said:
No-one has yet demonstrated that there's any "new" money to set up these units. More likely it will simply be ordered done within existing budgets.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 32,125
- Points
- 1,160
Several lower maniland units have 2 companies/ sub-units. Why not just open a new coy/bty/sqn in PG? I understand there's a BC who flies from Ft St John to parade with 5Fd Regt in Victoria (now THAT'S commitment folks). Just tell him to parade down the road in PG with 'No.2 Bty' of 5/15 Fd Regt, or whatever....
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
The story from the MPs has been that it is up to the army; well the Halifax and Yellowknife announcements make it pretty clear that it is a political decision. This is especially true since, according to the office of the Chief of the Land Staff, the army is still working on the plan to restructure the reserves. The question has been asked of the 2 MPs Dick Harris and Jay Hill but as of yet there has been no answer forthcoming.
The lack of influence that the two ridings in north central BC appear to have in this government is appalling.
Cheers,
Redleafjumper
The lack of influence that the two ridings in north central BC appear to have in this government is appalling.
Cheers,
Redleafjumper
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 11,882
- Points
- 1,160
daftandbarmy said:
Not enough guns to split up anymore. Plus Prince George is perfect for a Combat Engineer unit, the place is crawling with heavy equipment operaters and construction types. In fact i would not be surprised that you would get recruits that have built more bridges than the instructors, there is something like a 1,000 bridges built, rebuilt or removed every year in BC. Actually a drill hall with a platoon of Combat Engineers and Platoon of Infantry would be nice there.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Probably the best way to do it would be to have a unit that is primarily infantry-based with a troop of engineers, a medical section (there are approximately 4 CF doctor OCdts in training at UNBC, as well as at least two combat arms infantry), and an admin and logistics section. Since Prince George is located far from any existing unit, some sort of polygot seems to be logical. Even Kamloops has a variety of trades present in what is an infantry regiment. The local communities of Quesnel, Mackenzie, Vanderhoof and even Burns Lake could make contributions to the composition of a company-sized (real strength 120+) unit. There is at least one CIC officer who commutes from Prince George to Burns Lake (now that's dedication!), so it is reasonable to expect that others would be willing to do that as well.
So far nothing new on progress in Prince George.
Cheers,
So far nothing new on progress in Prince George.
Cheers,
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Given the equipment requirements of an Infantry platoon VS an engineer troop.... no doubt a lot easier to stand up an Infantry sub-sub-sub unit in your area & once it's up and going - playing around with the mix.
My suggestion would be to continue to make advances to the BC based infantry units - have them sponsor the new sub-sub off of their establishment. The Brigade will never stand up a new unit from existing resources IMHO
My suggestion would be to continue to make advances to the BC based infantry units - have them sponsor the new sub-sub off of their establishment. The Brigade will never stand up a new unit from existing resources IMHO
