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"Toronto 18" terrorists: Arrest/court/aftermath

Nice editorial in the Toronto Sun today

Tue, June 6, 2006
  Long War Ahead
Some Apologists Contend Exclusion is Behind Terrorism

By Paul Jackson

You should never beat a woman, not even with a flower
-- Muhammad

Yes, I am somewhat well-versed in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, perhaps more well-versed than adherents of the Islamic extremist world terrorist movement so determined to destroy western democracies.
Certainly more well-versed than the terrorist suspects in Ontario who, if the charges are true, took advantage of our nation's freedoms and prosperity only to then allegedly plot to spread destruction and death throughout our society.
The western democratic world is so obviously pitted in an all-out defensive position against radical Islamic tyrants aiming to undermine us, it's hard to ponder how any rational individual would ignore the threat.

But some still do. We're urged to be calm, not to throw stones.
We're even urged to make amends for perceived sins of the past -- to confess the crusades were really an assault against Islam, rather than a legitimate defence as extremist Islamic forces were at the very doors of Vienna.
Now they are in our midst.

I note the quote above by Muhammad to show how perverted the course of Islam has become, somewhat like Christianity in the guise of some money-hungry TV evangelists.
If Muhammad so abhorred violence a woman should not be beaten even with a flower, a contention in which I believe fully, then why are women in Muslim nations forbidden rights their sisters in other countries hold without question.

It's a philosophy driven mad by some, just as Germany under Adolf Hitler's Nazis and the Soviet Union under Josef Stalin's Communists.
There's talk about a "clash of cultures," meaning the Muslim world either can't deal with the technological changes stemming from the rest of the world, or is fighting against the immorality of the rest of the world.
Well, no one -- not even the Hitlers and the Stalins, or the Mao Zedong or Pol Pots -- have been able to halt mankind's progress, no matter what forces they tried to muster.

So one doubts the likes of Osama bin Laden and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will eventually fare much better. As long, that is, as we hold firm.
On the question of immorality, I tend to agree, having turned my back on Hollywood some time ago, but when basic human rights are denied to hundreds of millions in Muslim nations, there is a question there of immorality, too.
Some apologists -- and there are still a few of those lingering around -- contend 'home-grown' terrorists are that way because they have been excluded from mainstream society.

So who excluded them?
It's been my experience, and of my many friends of divergent creeds and cultures, mainstream society is more than willing to accept anyone who wants to join it.
No one needs to be excluded, unless they want to be.

It's a wide-open age in which we live.
Except if one is so intolerant they want to impose their totalitarian views on others.
In our mainstream society one can pick and choose just how to live: Anytime I see a photograph of the likes of Britney Spears in a newspaper, I turn the page. When I hear rap music in a bar, I walk out.

When I see New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton on TV, I switch channels.
Western democracy is very exhilarating, unless the thought of freedom scares you.
Freedom -- and fairness -- scare some individuals, usually individuals with inferiority complexes who often turn into bullies as a defensive mechanism.

So what can we do to protect western democracy?

In Canada, we already started when we elected Stephen Harper prime minister, and when Harper made Stockwell Day public safety minister.
None of the fawning attitudes of former -- and failed -- prime ministers Jean Chretien or Paul Martin now.
In the U.S., President George W. Bush is a beacon of hope and courage compared to the likes of Al Gore or John Kerry.
In Britain, Tony Blair is a man of steel, as is Australia's John Howard. Angela Merkel is a far more stalwart leader in Germany than was Gerhard Schroeder.
What we must remember is it took us 12 years -- from 1933 to 1945 to beat Germanic Nazism, and and some 74 years -- from 1917 to 1991 -- to whip Soviet Communism.

This is going to be a long war and we must not waver
 
Melanie Phillips wrote an excellant book called Londonistan recently published in the US. She seem's to have predicted this chain of events.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/archives/001734.html
 
tamouh:
the 'founding fathers'

were American.  In Canada we have the "Fathers of Confederation".
http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/aia/default.asp?Language=E&Page=federation&Sub=WhoWeretheFathersofConfe

The result of the Oes perhaps?

It seems to me you know your enemy but not your own country.  Quelle surprise.

Mark
Ottawa
 
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22443

Melanie Phillips discussing her book in an interview. She makes a very good case backed up by current events.
 
Well on the lighter side one of the lawyers said his client as accused of planning of storming the CBC and taking it over.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Folks, I have not a racist bone in my body,....assholes come from every way, shape and form. However the ONE BIG problem I have with the whole situation is this,

I am a white male,....if 17 young white males had been arrested for plotting a terrorist attack, I, and everyone I know, would be cheering the arrests.

It seems though, that this sentiment is not reciprocated by the various Muslim groups.........and THAT is very, very wrong.
Just as when McVeigh was arrested, I cheered. 

+1
 
Interesting take by at least one academic (as usual,  shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

Don't glamorize plotters as 'terrorists,' prof says, but as 'misguided cowards'
CanWest News Service, June 07, 2006

''The men arrested in connection with the alleged terrorist plot shouldn't be seen as Muslim terrorists but as idiotic thugs if the charges against them are true, says a University of Toronto psychology professor. "To call them Muslim terrorists, in my estimation, is a mistake. They're misguided totalitarian cowards and they're out for revenge," said Jordan Peterson, who studies the psychology of terrorism. "It's dumb and cowardly and they're in the same league ... as bone-headed skinheads in Eastern Germany." Mr. Peterson, an associate professor in U of T's psychology department, said calling such people terrorists only romanticizes them and gives them the notoriety they are seeking for their cause. "People like to think that those who are plotting against us are smart, because no one likes to think our society can be attacked by idiots," he said. ''
 
Here we go - the "crazed ex-militaman" card....

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

http://www.640toronto.com/news/metro.cfm?cat=7428109912&rem=39853&red=80110923aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=metro.cfm
 
Terror Suspect is Former Canadian Military Reservist
640Toronto.com, Jun, 07 2006 - 4:10 AM

''TORONTO - A new report suggests one of the 17 men charged in this weekend's anti-terrorism raids served as a Canadian military reservist for four years.

Yesterday, the lawyer for Steven Chand shocked reporters outside a Brampton courtroom when he revealed his client was suspected of plotting to behead the Prime Minister. And now, there's word the 25-year-old is a former member of the Royal Regiment of Canada, a reservist unit that meets in Toronto.

A military spokesperson confirms Chand once served in the military, but says he was absent for a lot of the time he spent in uniform. Chand would likely have received weapons training.''
 
This problem originates in the Muslim community, why is that community not speaking up about it.
Oh sure, we hear the occasional spokesman gently reminding us that not all muslims are like this, but this process begs the question, "If you are not like this, why are you allowing it by ignoring it?"
Passive acceptance works as well as active acceptance, and if you get painted by the same brush so be it.
Muslims need to clean up their own back yard loudly and clearly, only then they will have credibility.

In the meantime, we, the general population of Canada, of whatever race, color or religion, will continue to racial profile those that are perpetuating the planning and activation of terrorist acts.

It's actually quite simple. If muslims are supporting or participating in terrorist acts, then DON'T tell us not to look at you!!
 
An eye-opening article (in the Star!) by Tarek Fatah, Communications Director of the Muslim Canadian Congress, "Keep politics out of our mosques: Muslims cannot sit still while a fascist cult of Islamic supremacy takes over places of worship".
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149630611454&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

Excerpts:

'Three years ago when Kuwaiti Islamist scholar Tareq Al Suwaidian told a Toronto crowd that "Western civilization is rotten from within and nearing collapse ... it (the West) will continue to grow until an outside force hits it and you will be surprised at how quickly it falls," he was lustily cheered by the nearly 2,000 young Muslim men and women.

I was deeply offended by the hostile remark, but the thunderous approving applause of the young audience simply stunned me. All I could do was muster the courage and stage a polite walkout.

That day I resolved to fight this hostility toward the modern nation-state and Western civilization that was engulfing a section of Canadian Muslim youth; one that was being fanned by the leadership of the traditional Muslim organizations and Islamic radicals who took inspiration from the ruling elites of Iran and Saudi Arabia...

While the overwhelming majority of Canada's Muslims have been stunned by this development, few can honestly deny that they had seen this coming.

For years, some of us have been incessantly talking and writing about the growth of this extremist phenomenon, this contempt for secular parliamentary democracy and non-stop berating of Muslim youth who become "Canadian" and warnings to them that they will be punished in the hereafter if they do not adhere to the barren version of Islam where joy itself is a sin.

In the last five years, we Muslims have had more than our share of terrorism done in the name of our faith. Whether it is terrorist attacks in India or the hundreds of simultaneous bombings in 300 cities of Bangladesh; whether it is massacres of Muslims by Muslims in Iraq or the genocide of Muslims by Muslims in Darfur, the traditional leadership of the Muslim community responds repeatedly in a similar manner: abject denial...

There is not a single mosque in Canada where Muslims with opposing views can debate anything political, social or theological. The doors of debate are shut by the cement of orthodoxy. Only doublespeak and hypocrisy are allowed to flourish. As long as Muslims can find someone else to blame for our ills, the problem is seen as resolved.

I say, enough is enough. Muslims cannot go on behaving as if everything is normal. We cannot sit still while a fascist cult of Islamic supremacy takes over our mosques...'

Good on him and good on the Star.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Anyone see the CBC's Enemy Within.  They went to Amsterdam and Britain and interviewed both sides.  The Muslims were portrayed as being segrigated (by their own doing and their neighbours) and showed no attempt to become part of the nation they now lived in.  They also highlighted the response by the Danes and Brits.  It seems that the Danes have institued a policy of intergration whereby the muslims must right a test, speak the local dialect.  If any muslim commits a crime as small as shop lifting they are immediately deported.  Basically the premise was "Is Multi-culturalism Dead".
 
On a slightly different tangent, doesn't it seem odd that these fellows are being tried as regular criminals?
I keep replaying Bush's statement after 9-11 that these "Were not acts of terror, but acts of war."

The facts are not all in, but destruction of Parliament, murder of the PM, firing into crowds at random, these are acts of insurrection rather than crimes.

Shouldn't our justice system adapt? Shouldn't there be new laws written and new prisons built. I'm no expert, but do we need a Northern Ireland-style H-Block, a U.S.-style Gitmo, or whatever it is the Israelis use?

These young fellows seem thrilled by the idea of martyrdom, so the death penalty is just a sick enticement.
12 years of the Karla Homolka spa treatment won't be much of a message either.

All hysteria aside, what about military prison? Or a new detention facility at C.F.S. Alert?
After all, the military does become involved in insurrections. Ugly fact, but it chose us, not the other way around.

I think if you were 17 and new your 'brothers' were sitting in a hole in the Arctic for the next 60 years of their miserable lives, it might sap some of the glamour out of martyrdom.

I don't give a rat's ass for the rights of these fellows. Stealing a car or robbing a 7-11 is bad enough, but what they intended decries all defence of "he was young" or "alienation" or any of that crap. They wanted to launch a mini-Holocaust.

Any of you more reasoned minds out there have a comment on that?
 
probum non poenitet said:
On a slightly different tangent, doesn't it seem odd that these fellows are being tried as regular criminals?
I keep replaying Bush's statement after 9-11 that these "Were not acts of terror, but acts of war."

The facts are not all in, but destruction of Parliament, murder of the PM, firing into crowds at random, these are acts of insurrection rather than crimes.

Shouldn't our justice system adapt? Shouldn't there be new laws written and new prisons built. I'm no expert, but do we need a Northern Ireland-style H-Block, a U.S.-style Gitmo, or whatever it is the Israelis use?

These young fellows seem thrilled by the idea of martyrdom, so the death penalty is just a sick enticement.
12 years of the Karla Homolka spa treatment won't be much of a message either.

All hysteria aside, what about military prison? Or a new detention facility at C.F.S. Alert?
After all, the military does become involved in insurrections. Ugly fact, but it chose us, not the other way around.

I think if you were 17 and new your 'brothers' were sitting in a hole in the Arctic for the next 60 years of their miserable lives, it might sap some of the glamour out of martyrdom.

I don't give a rat's *** for the rights of these fellows. Stealing a car or robbing a 7-11 is bad enough, but what they intended decries all defence of "he was young" or "alienation" or any of that crap. They wanted to launch a mini-Holocaust.

Any of you more reasoned minds out there have a comment on that?

As far the prisons are concerned HANS island has been sugested.

I don't think using the CFSDB is what would help the situation,  the DB is more for re-hablitaion of soilders and re-installing discipline then it would be for detention of terroist.

Your right though those seem to more acts of war then actual crimes.  But then we need the government to step up and make the laws that would apply properly.(time to dust off the CC of C and revamp some of the older Part II offences against Public order sections)

 
Wiz I'm not sure anymore.  In Europe at least it seems like conquest through Muslim population saturation.  In time the Muslims outnumber most other ethnicities, get into gov't democratically and then begin to change the country.  Conspiracy of a scared white male.  Possibly.
 
I think their endstate is Afghanistan pre 9/11.  Once this has happened then there life is dedicated to maintaining this ideal.
 
TMM:
http://www.tvo.org/TVOsites/WebObjects/TvoMicrosite.woa/wo/ebAdWshCA4Mb2WYVxnxog0/2.0.0.79.45.26.1.13.1.1

"Also tonight, reaction from the Muslim community with Irshad Manji, author of The Trouble with Islam Today; Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian Congress; Ali Hindy from Scarborough's Salaheddin Islamic Centre; and Zafar Bangash, director of the Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought."

Mark
Ottawa
 
GAP said:
This problem originates in the Muslim community, why is that community not speaking up about it.

A bit of research would show that there are significant voices in the Muslim community supporting the government's actions:

http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=2506_0_2_0_C'

Canadian Muslims relieved alleged terrorist attack averted
Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:45 pm

For immediate release

CAIR-CAN joins all Canadians in expressing relief that a potential terrorist attack in Toronto has been averted and applauds the efforts by Canadian security forces to combat terrorism and other criminal activities. CAIR-CAN stands with all Canadians in the pursuit of safety and security for the residents of our country.

“As Canadian Muslims we unequivocally condemn terrorism in all of its forms. Canada is our home and we are deeply concerned about the safety of our country,” says Karl Nickner, CAIR-CAN’s Executive Director.

Security officials held a news conference Saturday morning to announce the arrest of an alleged terrorist cell in Toronto. According to reports, about 17 individuals, most of whom are Canadian citizens, have been arrested for allegedly plotting a terrorist attack.

“We stand behind our security forces and the Canadian government in their desire to protect Canada. We also have confidence that our justice system will accord these individuals transparency, due process and the presumption of innocence,” he added.

CAIR-CAN is also asking Canadian Muslims to cooperate with Canadian security agencies in order to combat any terrorist or other criminal activities.

To read the national statement by 120 Canadian Imams condemning terrorism and extremism, released last summer, please see: http://www.caircan.ca/ps_more.php?id=2004_0_6_0_M
 
Quagmire said:
Anyone see the CBC's Enemy Within.  They went to Amsterdam and Britain and interviewed both sides.  The Muslims were portrayed as being segrigated (by their own doing and their neighbours) and showed no attempt to become part of the nation they now lived in.  They also highlighted the response by the Danes and Brits.  It seems that the Danes have institued a policy of intergration whereby the muslims must right a test, speak the local dialect.  If any muslim commits a crime as small as shop lifting they are immediately deported.  Basically the premise was "Is Multi-culturalism Dead".

I saw that as well. I can't really say if what they are doing in the Neatherlands is worng. One thing I see why it is nessacry there as a result of the fact that they are a very liberal country and they want to defend thoise freedoms. However, haveing said that this would be right for sure in Canada. You have to look at our history as proof that multi-culturalism is nessacary. After all the British and the French were not the first people here. The aboriginals were. We have had many differnet groups of people since around the turn of the century. For example when the Pacific Railway had to be built we imported Chineese labour and forced them to live in horrible condition. Multi-culturalism is part of what we call Candian values and culture. We can't say that if you don't like bacon or hockey then you are not Canadian.
 
We can't say that if you don't like bacon or hockey then you are not Canadian.

Sure we can, we just can't mean it.

Yes Canada is Multicultural.  But we did have internment camps for the Japanese in the Second world war a whole race put into camps because they could not be trusted.  Is this the direction that we are leaning in again?  I would hope not.  I think we (the public) need reassurance from the Muslim community that they themselves do not support this and not just on web pages but on nation TV come out and say it don't let the ones that defend these wacko's hog the light.  You wonder why you get little support or understanding on your culture or religion is because you only let those who don't speak for the majority talk. Or am a fool for thinking other wise?

MOO
 
jb9293 said:
If you want to see how delusional some people are just click on this link.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/yourspace/CSIS_terrorists.html

You can read letters people sent to the CBC about the comments Jack Hooper made before the Senate defence committee. You can read such gems as:

and:

Got enough proof now?  ::)

Good grief.  I read all the comments, the last one is from someone named Chris Brobeck...an 'artisit' from Halifax...check out his website, you can obviously see why he has so much knowledge and insight into international and domestic security/terrorist activities and the like... ::)

http://vans.ednet.ns.ca/artist pages/cbrobeck.html

I bet all these people tell pilots how to fly planes too...christ. ::)

Clueless.  Like a herd of cattle waiting at the gate...MOOOOOOOOOO
 
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