- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
Perhaps our prison guard can address your points, point by point.
"Toronto 18" terrorists: Arrest/court/aftermath
- Thread starter stukirkpatrick
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 2,479
- Points
- 1,190
Q: What does their treatment while being detained have to do with their guilt or innocence? If the lawyers are simply trying to bring in media attention, well for one theres PLENTY of media attention already and two they should be trying to point attention towards their innocence. Not the prison guards guilt?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
NCdt Lumber said:
They are trying to prime the potential juror pool. Only a recluse or a coma victim will not have heard about this case, but if the lawyers can get enough media attention on smoke and mirrors BS (and the media puppets are falling right in line) then when jury selection comes, a potential juror might have that unsubstantiated seed of abuse in the back of their heads. Then, when the terrorist gets on the stand and cries about mistreatment, the juror goes "oh, I remember hearing something about that".
However, at least around these parts (Essex County), there are no jury trials. The criminals elect to be tried Judge only, and skip the jury. Why? Because juries are made up of normal people, and normal people are often burdened with what is rarely found in the legal system: common sense. Better to have a judge alone (who used to be a lawyer) then you can spin up your evidentiary arguments and charter complaints. If they do end up with a jury, I feel sorry for those people and the mountain of evidence they will have to endure. The wire taps alone will be months of info to digest.
- Reaction score
- 2,479
- Points
- 1,190
Sorry to spam the thread but I forgot to place this in my last post.
Q: I seek your opinions! Do you feel that due to the nature of the charges facing these 17 individuals, specifically Terrorism, that we as a Nation are more willing to 'look the other way' in term of their right and their treatment? If a murderer was found to have been mistreated while being detained during his trial, while we may all feel that 'he deserves' it, most of us would agree that it would have been better that he were treated fairly and justly and not harmed at all. With these 17 people, as presumed terrorists, do you feel that they have, by attacking our common feeling of community and security, abandoned their right to our kindness and fairness?
Q: I seek your opinions! Do you feel that due to the nature of the charges facing these 17 individuals, specifically Terrorism, that we as a Nation are more willing to 'look the other way' in term of their right and their treatment? If a murderer was found to have been mistreated while being detained during his trial, while we may all feel that 'he deserves' it, most of us would agree that it would have been better that he were treated fairly and justly and not harmed at all. With these 17 people, as presumed terrorists, do you feel that they have, by attacking our common feeling of community and security, abandoned their right to our kindness and fairness?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
NCdt Lumber said:
I am assuming that you are a Canadian Naval cadet? Have you not been following any politics in this country, and how the system works for "special people"?
If anyone in this country can look forward to an exhaustively thorough and fair trial, it will be these clowns. This case will set the tone for all other terrorism incidents that will occur in the future, so they are going to be anal retentive in their handling of it. That is why the abuse allegations being forwarded by the now-to-terrified-to-practice-law lawyer Galati are so laughable. Nobody in Canada has more rights and privileges than criminals. No one group has more time and expense exhausted to their benefit. If aliens were watching (and who's to say they aren't) you would think criminals were some sort of preferred citizen class for all of the consideration they receive.
So these guys, with all of the full force of white mans burden to not mention their religion, coupled with the socialist agenda that the judiciary pursues at any given time, compounded by a media that has a bone to pick with the current Federal gov't, are doing pretty good right about now. I will stand by to be amazed if they get some convictions. Not because I have any doubt as to their guilt, but because it is just so darn un-Canadian to have terrorists. Don't underestimate how strong that head-in-the-sand instinct will be in this trial.
And even upon conviction, wait and see how toothless and lame the sentencing is. I will be thrilled to stand by and be proven wrong. Time will tell.
- Reaction score
- 2,479
- Points
- 1,190
I see your point in terms of their rights. I disagree however with your outlook on the severity of their sentencing. I feel that once it has been made clear that they indeed received a fair trial, they will lose their 'preferred' citizen status. Quite simply if they are convicted as terrorists in a fair trial, no social group or media outlet is going to raise havock over a harsh sentence. But as you say, time will tell.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
NCdt Lumber said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not worried about any back lash from the sentencing. I am saying there is no such thing as a harsh sentence in Canada, and I don't believe they will get much more than a poo-poo face from the judge and a pittance of a sentence (hey, that rhymes!). Hell, actual murderers don't generally do much more than about fifteen years. Most of these clowns will still be plenty young enough to do some quality jihad-ing whenever they are released. And don't forget the precious "children" in this. By law, unless they get bumped up to adult court, the most they can possibly do is three years. And that would be at a fenced day care, where you loose your video game privileges if you don't do your chores. Minus time served which counts for double, which by the time it makes it to court, IF they get convicted, they are looking at an extra three months (don't forget the statutory release after 1/3 sentance done). woo.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150149009992&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621263
Many ironies as case unfolds
Jun. 13, 2006. 01:00 AM
ROSIE DIMANNO
Guantanamo! Torture! Suicide!
The exclamatory buzzwords were all over the place in, of all places, a Brampton courtroom yesterday.
Aliens alighting from another planet — knowing nothing of Canada's civilized temperament — might think this the most brutal and bludgeoning of police states, to hear lawyers for 17 alleged terrorists tell it.
How their clients — a dozen adults and five minors (though not so minor that they've been unable to summon healthy beards out of their androgens) — are being unspeakably mistreated by thuggish guards, subjected to oppressive and inhumane conditions, in the various custodial institutions where they currently reside as guests of Her Majesty.
"Torture! They push us!'' shouted one of the adult accused, in an outburst that drew only the most mild admonishment from the bench.
The rhetoric was fast and furious and fulminous, with obligatory referencing of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay and living circumstances purportedly so hideous that, well, the prospect of suicide born of despair shouldn't be ruled out.
They have been in custody now, these 17 males who were allegedly plotting to blow up stuff in Southern Ontario, for all of 11 days.
The most pungent statement of all, however, wasn't verbal, it was visual: Karim Khadr, the youngest terrorism-tinged member of Canada's celebrity-insurgent Khadr clan. Dramatically entering the courtroom in his wheelchair, then gently lifted by reverent acolytes and borne to a front-row seat.
The Comeback Kid.
Hey guys, he's there for you.
This was the teenager's first public appearance since returning to Canada from Afghanistan via Pakistan, brought home to partake of top-drawer medical treatment at the Hospital for Sick Children. His paralyzing problem — a bullet in the back, suffered whilst in the company of his father, who was fighting on behalf of Al Qaeda and slain in an exchange of fire with coalition forces.
Karim wore a "Stewie'' T-shirt — the insolent American cartoon character — and a kaffiyeh.
For anyone who thought, hoped, that perhaps the poison poured into this boy's ear during his childhood — most especially by a father intimately associated with Osama bin Laden — might have dissipated with renewed exposure to a society that is treating him exceedingly well, here was glum proof otherwise.
He is, yesterday's scenario suggests, very much his father's son.
As are two of his brothers — one incarcerated at Guantanamo, allegedly the hurler of a grenade that killed an American serviceman; the other fighting extradition to the United States, which is seeking to try him on terrorism-related charges.
Then there's the unrepentant mother and the truculent sister — both also in court yesterday — so maybe the kid never stood a chance, really, to piece his psyche back together again.
The posse that formed around Karim in his to-ing and fro-ing from court — young Muslim men with their chests thrust out to here — were clearly in tender thrall to the teenager. Perhaps, with his atrophied legs, he is Exhibit A in the professed assault of the West against their faith and their values. He is their tragedy, their undead martyr.
Karim is rumoured to have had a direct connection to one of the accused, perhaps a student-tutor relationship. But by his presence yesterday, he was certainly claiming ownership of a moral alliance.
And because the Khadrs are not just anybodies — they are notorious radicals, with thick intelligence dossiers — the suspicion grows that whatever was being fomented by alleged terrorist cadres in Scarborough and Mississauga (with gusts to Kingston, where two of the accused were already serving time on gun-related charges when the arrest sweeps occurred) may have been even more encompassing, more frightful, than currently portrayed.
The Khadrs aren't mere hapless jihadist dreamers, as some pre-emptively exculpatory commentators have characterized the 17 accused.
They're doers.
The irony, of course, is that the values the accused allegedly rejected in their headlong flight toward militancy, as described by investigators, are precisely the values — judicial, most critically at the moment — that are protecting their rights now, just as they safeguarded Karim's right to seek medical attention here and another brother's right to possession of a Canadian passport that had been refused him three years ago, as ruled by a federal court just this past Friday.
It is either frustrating or inspirational — take your pick — to watch, again, as Canada's most precious covenants are manipulated to justify rancid repudiation of the basic principles we all live by in this country.
If the allegations against them are true, these 17 accused planned to target some of the very institutions that they now turn to for relief from their purported misery. On the street, this is known as sucking and blowing.
The contradictions are staggering, between what the accused and their supporters claim to be the heavy-handedness of the state — bullying cops making a mountain out of an ammonium nitrate molehill, goose-marching to the tune of Washington's "war on terror'' — and the extremely conscientious application of this country's laws, as demonstrated in court yesterday.
A panoply of lawyers, speaking outside the courtroom, bandied about stunning accusations and egregious condemnations, huffing and puffing about insufficient exercise time, small cells, sleep deprivation, lights kept on all the time, improper disclosure by the Crown, and seclusion from the general jail population such that it constitutes de facto solitary confinement.
This, apparently, is Guantanamo Bay North.
One maintained his client had been beaten by guards. None of the accused — clean and tidy in their grey jailhouse pants and white tees — appeared to have so much as a bruise, or even a hair combed out of place.
Several lawyers complained about "leaks'' to the media by police and intelligence sources, as if this is uncommon practice.
Yet the most shocking allegations — beheading the Prime Minister and such — were put out there by these same lawyers, as they scrummed about the courthouse last week. A publication ban, issued yesterday — against the wishes of all but one defence attorney — will curb their hyperbole.
The lawyers want it both ways, to mince and damn, attack and repel.
So, too, apparently, do the defendants and those who venerate them.
Many ironies as case unfolds
Jun. 13, 2006. 01:00 AM
ROSIE DIMANNO
Guantanamo! Torture! Suicide!
The exclamatory buzzwords were all over the place in, of all places, a Brampton courtroom yesterday.
Aliens alighting from another planet — knowing nothing of Canada's civilized temperament — might think this the most brutal and bludgeoning of police states, to hear lawyers for 17 alleged terrorists tell it.
How their clients — a dozen adults and five minors (though not so minor that they've been unable to summon healthy beards out of their androgens) — are being unspeakably mistreated by thuggish guards, subjected to oppressive and inhumane conditions, in the various custodial institutions where they currently reside as guests of Her Majesty.
"Torture! They push us!'' shouted one of the adult accused, in an outburst that drew only the most mild admonishment from the bench.
The rhetoric was fast and furious and fulminous, with obligatory referencing of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay and living circumstances purportedly so hideous that, well, the prospect of suicide born of despair shouldn't be ruled out.
They have been in custody now, these 17 males who were allegedly plotting to blow up stuff in Southern Ontario, for all of 11 days.
The most pungent statement of all, however, wasn't verbal, it was visual: Karim Khadr, the youngest terrorism-tinged member of Canada's celebrity-insurgent Khadr clan. Dramatically entering the courtroom in his wheelchair, then gently lifted by reverent acolytes and borne to a front-row seat.
The Comeback Kid.
Hey guys, he's there for you.
This was the teenager's first public appearance since returning to Canada from Afghanistan via Pakistan, brought home to partake of top-drawer medical treatment at the Hospital for Sick Children. His paralyzing problem — a bullet in the back, suffered whilst in the company of his father, who was fighting on behalf of Al Qaeda and slain in an exchange of fire with coalition forces.
Karim wore a "Stewie'' T-shirt — the insolent American cartoon character — and a kaffiyeh.
For anyone who thought, hoped, that perhaps the poison poured into this boy's ear during his childhood — most especially by a father intimately associated with Osama bin Laden — might have dissipated with renewed exposure to a society that is treating him exceedingly well, here was glum proof otherwise.
He is, yesterday's scenario suggests, very much his father's son.
As are two of his brothers — one incarcerated at Guantanamo, allegedly the hurler of a grenade that killed an American serviceman; the other fighting extradition to the United States, which is seeking to try him on terrorism-related charges.
Then there's the unrepentant mother and the truculent sister — both also in court yesterday — so maybe the kid never stood a chance, really, to piece his psyche back together again.
The posse that formed around Karim in his to-ing and fro-ing from court — young Muslim men with their chests thrust out to here — were clearly in tender thrall to the teenager. Perhaps, with his atrophied legs, he is Exhibit A in the professed assault of the West against their faith and their values. He is their tragedy, their undead martyr.
Karim is rumoured to have had a direct connection to one of the accused, perhaps a student-tutor relationship. But by his presence yesterday, he was certainly claiming ownership of a moral alliance.
And because the Khadrs are not just anybodies — they are notorious radicals, with thick intelligence dossiers — the suspicion grows that whatever was being fomented by alleged terrorist cadres in Scarborough and Mississauga (with gusts to Kingston, where two of the accused were already serving time on gun-related charges when the arrest sweeps occurred) may have been even more encompassing, more frightful, than currently portrayed.
The Khadrs aren't mere hapless jihadist dreamers, as some pre-emptively exculpatory commentators have characterized the 17 accused.
They're doers.
The irony, of course, is that the values the accused allegedly rejected in their headlong flight toward militancy, as described by investigators, are precisely the values — judicial, most critically at the moment — that are protecting their rights now, just as they safeguarded Karim's right to seek medical attention here and another brother's right to possession of a Canadian passport that had been refused him three years ago, as ruled by a federal court just this past Friday.
It is either frustrating or inspirational — take your pick — to watch, again, as Canada's most precious covenants are manipulated to justify rancid repudiation of the basic principles we all live by in this country.
If the allegations against them are true, these 17 accused planned to target some of the very institutions that they now turn to for relief from their purported misery. On the street, this is known as sucking and blowing.
The contradictions are staggering, between what the accused and their supporters claim to be the heavy-handedness of the state — bullying cops making a mountain out of an ammonium nitrate molehill, goose-marching to the tune of Washington's "war on terror'' — and the extremely conscientious application of this country's laws, as demonstrated in court yesterday.
A panoply of lawyers, speaking outside the courtroom, bandied about stunning accusations and egregious condemnations, huffing and puffing about insufficient exercise time, small cells, sleep deprivation, lights kept on all the time, improper disclosure by the Crown, and seclusion from the general jail population such that it constitutes de facto solitary confinement.
This, apparently, is Guantanamo Bay North.
One maintained his client had been beaten by guards. None of the accused — clean and tidy in their grey jailhouse pants and white tees — appeared to have so much as a bruise, or even a hair combed out of place.
Several lawyers complained about "leaks'' to the media by police and intelligence sources, as if this is uncommon practice.
Yet the most shocking allegations — beheading the Prime Minister and such — were put out there by these same lawyers, as they scrummed about the courthouse last week. A publication ban, issued yesterday — against the wishes of all but one defence attorney — will curb their hyperbole.
The lawyers want it both ways, to mince and damn, attack and repel.
So, too, apparently, do the defendants and those who venerate them.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Let me shed a little light on the "torture" these guys are enduring in custody. I work for the Windsor (Ontario) Police Service in the dention unit. From what I am hearing, these guys are treated the same as anybody else that gets arrested. We leave the light on and check the prisoners every 30 minutes to ensure that they are OK. We feed them three times a day. When we transport them, they are chained together (it's hard to run away when you're chained to other guys). For high risk prisoners, it's common for the tact team guys to be in attendance. Nobody gets reading material of any kind. Everybody is searched during the booking process and all of their belongings are bagged and sealed. It is returned when they are released from custody. Evey square foot of the detention unit is video taped. I'm sure that there isn't one guy who wants to be the one that gets the case thrown out for something he did to these guys while they are in custody.
Why would we treat these guys any different than anybody else? They are accused criminals and should be treated no differently than the drug dealers or murderers that are arrested. If we did, someone bitch about that now wouldn't they?
Why would we treat these guys any different than anybody else? They are accused criminals and should be treated no differently than the drug dealers or murderers that are arrested. If we did, someone bitch about that now wouldn't they?
- Reaction score
- 35
- Points
- 530
Interesting assessment re: Mayor David Miller and who he was sharing information with....
As a side note, I don't know if anyone else caught the Senate Review of the new terrorism bill with Vic Toews and Stockwell Day but both men I thought did a wonderful job of covering the threat and how it needed to be dealt with during their approximate 5 minute individual introductions. What destroyed me was the first senator to ask a question on the subject was Senator Mobina Jaffer (Lib - Female). Her question was as follows (paraphrased): "The previous government was in the process of introducing a landmark initiative to attack racism and eliminate racial profiling from all government security activities. What will your government do ensure that our minorities are guaranteed safety from such bigotry."
Hmmm.....potentially 5 tonnes of explosive in concert with a rifle attack was being planned to be used to kill hundreds if not thousands of Canadians, most members went to the same mosques most likely funded by Saudi money and her question is on racial profiling and racism?
I just about put my remote through my TV screen....these useful idiots are going to get us all killed.
Matthew.
As a side note, I don't know if anyone else caught the Senate Review of the new terrorism bill with Vic Toews and Stockwell Day but both men I thought did a wonderful job of covering the threat and how it needed to be dealt with during their approximate 5 minute individual introductions. What destroyed me was the first senator to ask a question on the subject was Senator Mobina Jaffer (Lib - Female). Her question was as follows (paraphrased): "The previous government was in the process of introducing a landmark initiative to attack racism and eliminate racial profiling from all government security activities. What will your government do ensure that our minorities are guaranteed safety from such bigotry."
Hmmm.....potentially 5 tonnes of explosive in concert with a rifle attack was being planned to be used to kill hundreds if not thousands of Canadians, most members went to the same mosques most likely funded by Saudi money and her question is on racial profiling and racism?
I just about put my remote through my TV screen....these useful idiots are going to get us all killed.
Matthew.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
watching the tube today,
Cdn muslim leaders published and broadcasted a "fatwah"(sp?) that basicaly instructed all good muslims (are there any other kind) to protect their country of residence and NOT to take up arms / beligerance.
Wonder how well it is being received in Canada (and across the world)
(will try to track down copy of text..........)
Cdn muslim leaders published and broadcasted a "fatwah"(sp?) that basicaly instructed all good muslims (are there any other kind) to protect their country of residence and NOT to take up arms / beligerance.
Wonder how well it is being received in Canada (and across the world)
(will try to track down copy of text..........)
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Obey your country's laws, Iraqi cleric urges Muslims
Last Updated Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:52:26 EDT
CBC News
Iraq's top Shia cleric sent a message Wednesday to Muslims in Western nations, urging them to obey the laws of the countries in which they live.
The fatwa, a non-binding directive, was delivered at a Montreal news conference of prominent Shia Muslims on behalf of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
"Muslims have undertaken to obey the laws of the country of their residence and thus they must be faithful to that undertaking," the statement read.
It condemned all acts of violence and encouraged imams to keep a watchful eye on what's going on inside their mosques.
A fatwa is a legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar.
Muslims are not bound to obey it, but many will if they are comfortable with its content, said freelance journalist Zuhair Kashmeri.
The fatwa was drafted in response to the arrests earlier this month of 17 people connected to a bomb plot investigation in southern Ontario. Police allege some of the suspects were inspired by al-Qaeda and its attacks on Western targets.
Jamal Badawi, an Islamic scholar at St. Mary's University, said a number of similar fatwas have been issued in recent years.
"It's nothing new, but I'm very glad it attracted the attention of the media," Badawi said. "Muslims have been speaking loud enough, but no one's listening."
Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said it's encouraging that clerics would promote obedience to the rule of law, but disappointing that the message needs to come through a fatwa.
"It's so medieval to be thinking … religious dictates should govern how we live our lives," said Fatah.
He said he doesn't doubt the group's sincerity, but that Canadian Muslims shouldn't be governed from overseas.
"He should not be telling me how to behave," said Fatah, who said al-Sistani has issued earlier fatwas saying gays and lesbians should be killed.
Last Updated Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:52:26 EDT
CBC News
Iraq's top Shia cleric sent a message Wednesday to Muslims in Western nations, urging them to obey the laws of the countries in which they live.
The fatwa, a non-binding directive, was delivered at a Montreal news conference of prominent Shia Muslims on behalf of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
"Muslims have undertaken to obey the laws of the country of their residence and thus they must be faithful to that undertaking," the statement read.
It condemned all acts of violence and encouraged imams to keep a watchful eye on what's going on inside their mosques.
A fatwa is a legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar.
Muslims are not bound to obey it, but many will if they are comfortable with its content, said freelance journalist Zuhair Kashmeri.
The fatwa was drafted in response to the arrests earlier this month of 17 people connected to a bomb plot investigation in southern Ontario. Police allege some of the suspects were inspired by al-Qaeda and its attacks on Western targets.
Jamal Badawi, an Islamic scholar at St. Mary's University, said a number of similar fatwas have been issued in recent years.
"It's nothing new, but I'm very glad it attracted the attention of the media," Badawi said. "Muslims have been speaking loud enough, but no one's listening."
Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said it's encouraging that clerics would promote obedience to the rule of law, but disappointing that the message needs to come through a fatwa.
"It's so medieval to be thinking … religious dictates should govern how we live our lives," said Fatah.
He said he doesn't doubt the group's sincerity, but that Canadian Muslims shouldn't be governed from overseas.
"He should not be telling me how to behave," said Fatah, who said al-Sistani has issued earlier fatwas saying gays and lesbians should be killed.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I don't know how long it takes for a transcript to come out, or a video link, but there is a CBC special on right now (called Your Turn? )about Islam in Canada. It has been an excellent learning tool, and it looks like several Imam's are stepping up and declaring with no qualified statements that there is no excuse for causing violence here in North America. Very encouraging to see the leadership being vocal, however they are taking questions and comments from the audience, and there is a disturbing trend in the youth to justify their "anger" and are pretty much saying that anything they do is as a result of being so terribly marginalized by Canada.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1152222610978&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News
I wanted to post this article in the "National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids " thread but it appears to be locked. Maybe the mods could move this to that thread if possible.
Accused terrorists' families supply drama
Jul. 7, 2006. 06:40 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD AND SAN GREWAL
STAFF REPORTERS
The rooftop police snipers and hordes of reporters may be gone, but the family and legal drama surrounding the 17 accused members of a local terrorist cell continues to unfold inside and outside a Brampton courtroom.
It involves their wives and a connection to the daughter of a reputed Al Qaeda financier, their bewildered children confused by the handcuffs and shackles, and the parents of the younger suspects, who shake their heads as government lawyers outline the case.
Then there are some of the suspects' wives and friends, who refuse to stand as the justice of the peace or the judge enters and exits the courtroom — a customary practice announced by the court clerk. This has created an obvious tension, and at some point a judge may decide to confront the spectators' seeming disrespect for court etiquette.
Two unfailingly polite court officers, who have been present for all of the hearings since the men's arrests June 2, have spoken with the women and some of the suspects' young friends, but still many refuse to stand. Some exceptions have been made, such as last Monday, when it appeared that the wife of 43-year-old suspect Qayyum Abdul Jamal might have been breast-feeding under her full-length robe, making it difficult to rise for the judge.
Five weeks have passed since the dramatic Friday night arrests of what Canada's security services are calling a "homegrown" terrorist group that was allegedly planning to bomb and attack southern Ontario targets. During that time, two of the teenaged suspects have been refused bail, and the remaining men have made numerous court appearances to set dates for upcoming hearings.
A bail hearing for 20-year-old Amin Mohamed Durrani began yesterday.
On the stand as the government's witness at Durrani's hearing, as in past cases, was a detective who works with the RCMP-led anti-terrorism unit. The Crown, posing questions to the officer, took the court through more than three hours of evidence, which included pictures and videos.
It was an extensive presentation, one not often given at a bail hearing — especially since it's a serious offence, meaning the onus is on the defence to convince the judge why a suspect should be released, not on the Crown to argue for detention.
With a customary publication ban prohibiting the media from reporting on the evidence or information presented against individual suspects at the hearings, the accused are often portrayed as a group of suspected terrorists without distinctions being made among them.
But outside Brampton's Courtroom 107, there is a clear distinction between many of the relatives — both philosophically and in whom they associate with. And some lawyers have said they'll request that their clients' bail hearings be held separately in an attempt to distinguish among the seriousness of the allegations.
The parents of most of the youths, who cannot be identified under a law protecting those who were under 18 at the time of their alleged crimes, do not seem to know the relatives of the adult suspects. They huddle with their lawyers and most politely decline interview requests from reporters.
Among the relatives of the adult suspects, there's a distinction as well.
The wives of Zakaria Amara and Fahim Ahmad, who were allegedly the leaders of two factions in the group, often appear together with Jamal's wife, Cheryfa MacAuley Jamal, and Zaynab Khadr, the eldest child of Osama bin Laden associate Ahmed Said Khadr, who was killed in October 2003 during a fight with Pakistani forces.
Jamal and Khadr seem to dispense advice to the group. "Do not speak to them," Jamal was overheard telling the other women waiting outside the courtroom last week, as she wagged her finger at a group of journalists. "They'll twist your words and lie."
Khadr sometimes darts in and out of the courtroom with fussy children of the accused, so that the wives don't have to leave the proceedings. During one hearing, she took Amara's daughter outside to settle her down, after his wife had held the child aloft and she cried "Dada Dada," upon seeing her shackled father in the prisoner's dock.
The wives are not on trial, but they have received much attention since the disclosure last week of Internet postings they made before their husbands' arrests. They talked of their passion for holy war, hatred of Canada and their sympathy for the Khadr family, The Globe and Mail reported.
Members of the Khadr family have been criticized since returning to Canada due to their public statements in support of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States and admitted family ties to bin Laden.
Zaynab Khadr returned to Toronto last year, following her mother, Maha Elsamnah. Four of the six Khadr children are now living in two Scarborough apartments. (The eldest son, Abdullah, is in a Toronto jail fighting his extradition to the U.S., where he faces terrorism-related charges. Omar, 19, is Canada's only detainee in the U.S. internment camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.)
Zaynab was met at the airport by RCMP officers when she returned to Toronto in February 2005, and the Mounties seized her luggage. As part of the sworn information used to obtain a search warrant for the 26-year-old's possessions, an RCMP investigator wrote, "I believe that Zaynab Khadr has willingly participated and contributed both directly and indirectly towards enhancing the ability of Al Qaeda to facilitate its criminal activities." The allegations remain unproven and Khadr has never been charged either in Canada or abroad.
There are many months to go before any of the 17 accused will face trial — and there's the potential that some may testify against the others. Their trials are likely again to hit the world stage, similar to the frenzied attention given to the arrests last month.
One defence lawyer has suggested that he will apply to allow cameras into the courtroom.
The total lack of decorum displayed by these ladies is astounding. It appear they have no respect for anything our nation holds dear. Hold on....actually they already admitted that didn't they? But hey, who wants to go there again.
I wanted to post this article in the "National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids " thread but it appears to be locked. Maybe the mods could move this to that thread if possible.
Accused terrorists' families supply drama
Jul. 7, 2006. 06:40 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD AND SAN GREWAL
STAFF REPORTERS
The rooftop police snipers and hordes of reporters may be gone, but the family and legal drama surrounding the 17 accused members of a local terrorist cell continues to unfold inside and outside a Brampton courtroom.
It involves their wives and a connection to the daughter of a reputed Al Qaeda financier, their bewildered children confused by the handcuffs and shackles, and the parents of the younger suspects, who shake their heads as government lawyers outline the case.
Then there are some of the suspects' wives and friends, who refuse to stand as the justice of the peace or the judge enters and exits the courtroom — a customary practice announced by the court clerk. This has created an obvious tension, and at some point a judge may decide to confront the spectators' seeming disrespect for court etiquette.
Two unfailingly polite court officers, who have been present for all of the hearings since the men's arrests June 2, have spoken with the women and some of the suspects' young friends, but still many refuse to stand. Some exceptions have been made, such as last Monday, when it appeared that the wife of 43-year-old suspect Qayyum Abdul Jamal might have been breast-feeding under her full-length robe, making it difficult to rise for the judge.
Five weeks have passed since the dramatic Friday night arrests of what Canada's security services are calling a "homegrown" terrorist group that was allegedly planning to bomb and attack southern Ontario targets. During that time, two of the teenaged suspects have been refused bail, and the remaining men have made numerous court appearances to set dates for upcoming hearings.
A bail hearing for 20-year-old Amin Mohamed Durrani began yesterday.
On the stand as the government's witness at Durrani's hearing, as in past cases, was a detective who works with the RCMP-led anti-terrorism unit. The Crown, posing questions to the officer, took the court through more than three hours of evidence, which included pictures and videos.
It was an extensive presentation, one not often given at a bail hearing — especially since it's a serious offence, meaning the onus is on the defence to convince the judge why a suspect should be released, not on the Crown to argue for detention.
With a customary publication ban prohibiting the media from reporting on the evidence or information presented against individual suspects at the hearings, the accused are often portrayed as a group of suspected terrorists without distinctions being made among them.
But outside Brampton's Courtroom 107, there is a clear distinction between many of the relatives — both philosophically and in whom they associate with. And some lawyers have said they'll request that their clients' bail hearings be held separately in an attempt to distinguish among the seriousness of the allegations.
The parents of most of the youths, who cannot be identified under a law protecting those who were under 18 at the time of their alleged crimes, do not seem to know the relatives of the adult suspects. They huddle with their lawyers and most politely decline interview requests from reporters.
Among the relatives of the adult suspects, there's a distinction as well.
The wives of Zakaria Amara and Fahim Ahmad, who were allegedly the leaders of two factions in the group, often appear together with Jamal's wife, Cheryfa MacAuley Jamal, and Zaynab Khadr, the eldest child of Osama bin Laden associate Ahmed Said Khadr, who was killed in October 2003 during a fight with Pakistani forces.
Jamal and Khadr seem to dispense advice to the group. "Do not speak to them," Jamal was overheard telling the other women waiting outside the courtroom last week, as she wagged her finger at a group of journalists. "They'll twist your words and lie."
Khadr sometimes darts in and out of the courtroom with fussy children of the accused, so that the wives don't have to leave the proceedings. During one hearing, she took Amara's daughter outside to settle her down, after his wife had held the child aloft and she cried "Dada Dada," upon seeing her shackled father in the prisoner's dock.
The wives are not on trial, but they have received much attention since the disclosure last week of Internet postings they made before their husbands' arrests. They talked of their passion for holy war, hatred of Canada and their sympathy for the Khadr family, The Globe and Mail reported.
Members of the Khadr family have been criticized since returning to Canada due to their public statements in support of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States and admitted family ties to bin Laden.
Zaynab Khadr returned to Toronto last year, following her mother, Maha Elsamnah. Four of the six Khadr children are now living in two Scarborough apartments. (The eldest son, Abdullah, is in a Toronto jail fighting his extradition to the U.S., where he faces terrorism-related charges. Omar, 19, is Canada's only detainee in the U.S. internment camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.)
Zaynab was met at the airport by RCMP officers when she returned to Toronto in February 2005, and the Mounties seized her luggage. As part of the sworn information used to obtain a search warrant for the 26-year-old's possessions, an RCMP investigator wrote, "I believe that Zaynab Khadr has willingly participated and contributed both directly and indirectly towards enhancing the ability of Al Qaeda to facilitate its criminal activities." The allegations remain unproven and Khadr has never been charged either in Canada or abroad.
There are many months to go before any of the 17 accused will face trial — and there's the potential that some may testify against the others. Their trials are likely again to hit the world stage, similar to the frenzied attention given to the arrests last month.
One defence lawyer has suggested that he will apply to allow cameras into the courtroom.
The total lack of decorum displayed by these ladies is astounding. It appear they have no respect for anything our nation holds dear. Hold on....actually they already admitted that didn't they? But hey, who wants to go there again.
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okay, I think I got most of the crap out of this thread now. Let's try to keep it that way.
Re-opened.
Re-opened.
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Octavianus said:
I'm confused. If they hate Canada... why are they still here?
Is it that they hate their home country even more?
If they really want to leave, I am willing to contribute to their airfare outa here.
Only string attached would be the proviso that they do not come back for any reason whatsoever.... (EI, Welfare, Pension, Medicare, etc)
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geo said:
Surely you must be familiar with the concept of a foreward recce element? There are hundreds of people in the country who are planted here to either set up support networks or generate cash to send back home to support terrorism. These types hate all western culture, so we shouldn't really take it too personally as Canadians. They think all of us suck.
Plus, many of them would face prosecution and execution back home if they were sent. Since Canada Immigration is so hung up with that concept, those are their own good enough grounds to support a refugee claim. Refugee power is far greater than anti-terrorism power.
Have fun in a large urban setting near you.
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