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Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada

  • Thread starter Thread starter the patriot
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group of peace activists who had been working inside the Quebec wing of the Liberal party for several years on this issue.

Interesting, but not too surprising given the traditional results of any poll in PQ concerning defence issues. Has anybody ever actually gone behind the simple poll results to determine what is at the root of this attitude, considering that so many Quebecois serve so well in the CF, and many have reached high (or the highest...) positions? Is this still "Conquest" hangover?  ???

Cheers
 
pbi said:
Interesting, but not too surprising given the traditional results of any poll in PQ concerning defence issues. Has anybody ever actually gone behind the simple poll results to determine what is at the root of this attitude, considering that so many Quebecois serve so well in the CF, and many have reached high (or the highest...) positions? Is this still "Conquest" hangover?   ???

Cheers


Again we bow to your wisdom. However I would like a clearer definition of "Conquest hangover".

Also, have you determined or have an opinion of the root of their attitude?.

As to the Achievements and Service of those fine members of the CAF's, they are perfect examples of
Canadian Citizenry. So are the rest of the CAF's.
 
pbi said:
Interesting, but not too surprising given the traditional results of any poll in PQ concerning defence issues. Has anybody ever actually gone behind the simple poll results to determine what is at the root of this attitude, considering that so many Quebecois serve so well in the CF, and many have reached high (or the highest...) positions? Is this still "Conquest" hangover?   ???

Cheers
Maybe you will find the answer(s) here: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/03/04/pf-950522.html

Here's an extract:
Granatstein said his opinions are not a matter of anti-Quebec feeling but a clear reflection of poll results and a history that included a conscription crisis and an anglophone army that discriminated against French Canadians.

"Quebec also has a long history of anti-imperialism, first against the British, now against the United States," he said.
 
Jungle makes an interesting observation with the Granatstein column.   (There was another excellent take on this in the National Post by L. Ian Macdonald last week as well.)

In my view the current state of Quebec politics was absolutely decisive in driving Martin to refuse missile defence participation.

But remember it's not the PQ but the BQ that the Liberals are in competing against here (with the usual overlap between the provincial and federal sovereignist movements noted).

With 54 Bloc seats in the federal parliament, the Martin Liberals are obsessed with regaining that lost ground. It remains a major embarassment to Martin that he failed so miserably to capture the high ground in Quebec - (after all Martin is ostensibly a Quebec politician himself -- or has at least tried to recast himself as one).  

However,(irrespective of the semi-regular pundit prognoses that the BQ is about the disappear that we are always assured of on the eve of every federal election) the fact is that it hasn't, and has become, if anything, an institutionalized force on the federal political scene in Quebec.

That may guarantee a series of minority governments in the future - along with considerable BQ influence on our foreign policy.

cheers, mdh
 
So what you're saying is that if Martin had a Majority Government, we'd be on board with Missile Defence.

Gotta love politics....
 
I don't think it's a coincidence that Martin was favourably disposed to missile defence in 2003 when it looked like the LP was going to sweep the country with gargantuan majorities and reducing the opposition parties to eccentric splinter groups - (remember those predictions!). Suddenly Martin ends up with a minority and presto missile defence becomes a complicated issue.

I thought it was interesting that Graham (a missile hawk? who would have thunk it?) fingered the "peace activist" wing of the Quebec Liberal Party for undermining support for BMD.

Under these circumstances I fear for the future of our defence budget despite the promised billions.
 
mdh said:
(remember those predictions!).

Yeah, I remember those predictions - they are in the same place as the MacLeans issue with "Prime Minister Steven Harper" on the cover.

Gotta love politics.

I thought it was interesting that Graham (a missile hawk? who would have thunk it?) fingered the "peace activist" wing of the Quebec Liberal Party for undermining support for BMD.

Under these circumstances I fear for the future of our defence budget despite the promised billions.

Wouldn't it be funny if the Liberal Party split and left behind the "activist/socialist" crowd and the Conservative Party split and left behind the "Religious Regressive/Western Seperatist" crowd and the two formed together to make a "Sensible Canadian Party"?

At least I could feel comfortable in casting a vote....
 
mdh said:
Under these circumstances I fear for the future of our defence budget despite the promised billions.

I believe those are Grahams sentiments as well. While the saying "don't hold your breath" is not applicable here, I think the defence community can at least exhale, but be prepared to draw deep at the drop of a nickel. This government is far too volatile in a world that is craving stability. Dither better get his kit in order,or he is going to be kicking his lunch pail down the road.
 
Infanteer said:
So what you're saying is that if Martin had a Majority Government, we'd be on board with Missile Defence.

Gotta love politics....

I don't think so; even had he won a majority he would have been faced with a Québec caucus and an Ontario caucus and a Women's Commission and, and, and ... each telling him that â ?getting in bed with George Bushâ ? would cost them their seats in the next election and, possibly, would cost the Liberals the government.

I agree with those who say that Martin (probably through ignorance) did not understand the issue and, consequently, gave the issue to the NDP who screamed â ?Star Wars! Run for lives! The sky is falling!â ?.

Martin could have done it almost as soon as he took power, before the election, but the dithering took hold, and ...

However, watch for us to join, through the back door, through the Navy, with ship based interceptors.
 
Jungle said:
Maybe you will find the answer(s) here: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/03/04/pf-950522.html

Here's an extract:

Very good article, it just gets bleaker and bleaker.

Its worse than trying to fight City Hall.

As for the 13 Billion Dollars, mostly in the 4th. & 5th.years, Mr Dither's way of just buying time and votes.

The Young Liberal Party, I watched them on T.V. this evening, its probably a safe bet that they even begrudge the CAF's their salaries, it probably would mean more free needles for Junkies and Pot Rations for those who can't afford it.That would be their solution to stop Crimes related to Drug use.

Its okay for people to drink them selves to death or ruin. That repeat Offenders of DUI resulting in Death get suspended sentences. That Murderers get Life but are out in ten. Our Justice System is sourly lacking.
But the Young Liberal Party is advocating the Legalization of MJ and Prostitution as a solultion for reduced crime. Lets not forget their stand for Gay Marriages.

I don't know about you, but I feel like we're going to Hell on a Fast Track.



 
I don't think so; even had he won a majority he would have been faced with a Québec caucus and an Ontario caucus and a Women's Commission and, and, and ... each telling him that â ?getting in bed with George Bushâ ? would cost them their seats in the next election and, possibly, would cost the Liberals the government.

Yes but a sitting PM with a majority in the House can also withstand that kind of pressure - usually with some impunity.  

Don't forget that Martin was supposed to have represented a renewal of the LP from the dissipated Chretien era - better relations with the US was a priority, and BMD was an important part of that strategy.

In a minority situation, Martin is on a constant political death watch. Suddenly every seat counts and every faction exercises considerable (in this case baleful) influence.  

Survival is the first order of business - not the consistency of one's political principles.

cheers, mdh
 
Edward Campbell said:
However, watch for us to join, through the back door, through the Navy, with ship based interceptors.

I thought so too with the SM-3 and the SHT version for the 280 replacement. I am not hopeful the SHT will actually materialize within the career of most people who view this site as of today. Not because of the cost, but because of the political utility of being able to forever seal the capability to build or acquire such a ship.     10 years from now, with no capacity to build one, could we be really expect to be trusted with the purchase of such a vessel and system after all that has been said and done by Mr. Dithers et al.?
 
This, from today's Ottawa Citizen at: http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=9682f706-43b1-409e-828b-ea82c5b57d01 shows the same old, same old part of the problem: still more dithering, but three dimensional dithering incorporating the much delayed foreign policy review, which, we are told, needs more pizzazz (and, one supposes, as a corollary, fewer ideas).

The last two paragraphs purport to quote from the DRAFT foreign policy review.   I'm sure the Americans are grateful for the â Å“clear and earlyâ ? explanation of our differences.   I hope Prof. Welsh excises such nonsense from whichever version finally finds favour with PM PM.

Minority jitters put Liberals off missile defence

Documents show pre-election intent was to join to ease relations with U.S.

Mike Blanchfield
The Ottawa Citizen

Monday, March 07, 2005

Shortly before last year's federal election, the Liberal government was leaning toward joining the U.S. ballistic missile defence program, pledging to explain its views "clearly and early" to avoid any misunderstandings with Washington, says a draft government document.

Discussion of the contentious issue is contained in a May 13, 2004, draft copy of the government's as-yet-unreleased international policy statement, which has been obtained by the Citizen.

In a list of items that "Canada will do" to bolster relations with the United States, the draft states: "participate in the BMD program, and seek to ensure that Norad's existing missile warning and attack assessment role is fully incorporated into the BMD mission."

The statement is bracketed in the text, to reflect the government had yet to decide to join the program. The draft document does not discuss the scenario of Canada not joining the program.

The government opted out of the missile defence program last month, after a long period of indecision that frustrated Washington.

The document also says the Paul Martin Liberals intended to bring international treaties before the House of Commons for consultation in "a historic new role for Parliament," but that never materialized after they were reduced to a minority government in the June election.

In August, the government amended the Norad treaty -- without consulting Parliament -- to allow the joint Canada-U.S. aerospace command to serve as the early warning system for the shield, something the draft policy statement called for three months earlier.

While the government can sign and amend international treaties without consulting Parliament, the opposition accused the Liberals of reneging on a promise to bring missile defence before the Commons for a debate.

In the face of stiff opposition from the NDP, Bloc Quebecois and from within the Liberal party itself, the government formally said no to the controversial program on Feb. 24.

That decision, in the words of U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci, "perplexed" the administration of President George W. Bush because Canada had indicated to Washington it would sign on.

According to a leaked copy of the foreign policy review, titled Building Canada's Global Advantage, the government was determined to avoid a repeat of this type of confusion with its U.S. ally.

Canada-U.S. relations had been strained in 2003 because the government delayed its decision not to politically support the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. Then-prime minister Jean Chretien announced the government's decision in Parliament without giving the White House a courtesy call.

"Canada must ensure that it clearly explains its goals and why we pursue them. There should be 'no surprises,' especially on issues where we differ. We will reinforce the perception that Canada is an innovative and reliable partner," says the draft policy statement.

"Where our views diverge, Canada will defend its views, explaining our position to our American partners clearly and early. In these cases, we will work with the U.S. in bridging the gap, including the management of our differences."

 
I wish our govt would explain our supposed position to parliament and the tax payers, Clearly and Early. But I doubt that is SOP for the Liberals. :-[

B M.
 
This is from today's Globe and Mail at:   http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050309/NORAD09/TPInternational/?query=NORAD

Emphasis, at the end, added.

Expand NORAD, defence experts urge

By PAUL KORING
Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - Page A13

WASHINGTON -- Despite spurning U.S. President George W. Bush's offer of partnership in a protective continental missile shield, Ottawa should seek shared land and sea defence arrangements with Washington, Canadian and U.S. defence experts said yesterday.

Just over a week after Prime Minister Paul Martin snubbed Mr. Bush over missile defence, military and political analysts at a bi-national conference urged that the North American Aerospace Defence Command be expanded to include naval and land operations.

Some warned that the mood isn't right in either country to deepen military integration, but others suggested Ottawa needs to demonstrate that it can be a reliable defence partner.

"If space divides us, then maritime defence should unite us," said Colonel Douglas Murray, chair of the social-sciences division of the U.S. Air Force Academy.

Col. Douglas joined defence analysts and senior retired military personnel from both countries at the conference, sponsored by the Woodrow Wilson International Center in Washington and the Centre for the Study of the United States at the Toronto-based Munk Centre.

The estrangement over missile defence seemed at odds with yesterday's visions of U.S. warships intercepting suspect freighters bound for Halifax, Canadian submarines shadowing terrorists seeking to land surreptitiously in Maine, and binational monitoring of the still-disputed Northwest Passage with a combination of spy satellites and unmanned aircraft, all reporting to a NORAD-like joint-command centre.

Adding land and sea operations when the NORAD pact is renegotiated next year could reinforce Canadian sovereignty, not weaken it, argued Dwight Mason, a former co-chair of the Permanent Joint Board of Defence, the highest-level defence arrangement between Canada and the United States.

Mr. Mason acknowledged a growing "lack of trust and confidence in Canada" among some top Bush administration officials in the wake of Ottawa's missile-defence rejection.

But he voiced hope that Washington will see closer integration of continental defence as being in its own self-interest.

Retired Canadian Air Force lieutenant-general George Macdonald, a former NORAD deputy commander and strong proponent of closer defence links, acknowledged that "some Americans are questioning how useful it is" to have Canadians involved in continental defence because of the missile-defence decision. He urged Canadians to "act accordingly" if their neighbours "see something as a threat," even if the same view isn't widely shared north of the border.

For instance, recent polls show that Americans regard terrorist attacks as their No. 1 threat. In Canada, infectious disease and global warming are both seen as more threatening.

Gen. Macdonald said he remains optimistic about Canadian defence participation, after a budget that promised billions in additional military spending.

Others, including James Fergusson, director of the Centre for Defence and Security Studies at the University of Manitoba, said they were sanguine. Recalling decades of broken spending promises by successive Canadian governments, Prof. Fergusson said he doubts that Mr. Martin's extra money "will translate into anything significant."

 
There is a very pertinent editorial in this morning's National Post at: http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=4251aba1-21a9-4b81-8bdc-f8214b1c2f7a

Annoying our friend

National Post

Saturday, March 12, 2005

Earlier this week, a senior official in the Bush Administration was asked whether the Democrats' opposition to the appointment of hawkish John Bolton as the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations made them appear closely aligned to France and Germany -- in other words, too committed to pie-in-the-sky multilateralism. "Worse," the official responded. "They look like Canadians."

This is what it's come to. Courtesy of Ottawa's hesitant approach to the war on terror, its perfidy on missile defence and the government's predilection for insulting the Americans -- and George W. Bush in particular -- at every turn, U.S. officials now apparently use "Canadian" as a sort of byword for pointless obstructionism and pettiness in foreign affairs. And if the situation is not already bad enough, some Liberals seem unable to stop themselves from making things worse.

Take Marlene Jennings -- the Montreal-area MP who this week proposed that Ottawa buy ads in foreign countries detailing Canada's troubles resolving trade disputes with the U.S. Her goal? To "embarrass the hell out of the Americans" and pressure them into settling mad cow and softwood lumber rows.

This might have seemed a clever idea to a group of merry-making Young Liberals whooping it up in an Ottawa pub during last weekend's Liberal convention. But the Americans would see it as a direct attempt to undermine their economy by interfering with their international trade. Far from prompting them to settle bilateral irritants with us, it would provoke at least the U.S. Congress -- and very possibly the Bush administration -- to look for ways to retaliate. And even the fact that it was raised at all will reinforce Washington's impression -- driven home previously by Carolyn Parrish and Francie Ducros, among others -- that anti-Americanism is routinely practiced and encouraged within our government.

What makes Ms. Jennings' childish suggestion doubly damaging is that she is not just another Grit backbencher; rather, she is the parliamentary secretary for Canada-U.S. relations. Her official position both within the government and on this file give her remark the appearance of being government policy.

Ms. Jennings is supposed to be responsible for improving our relations with our largest trading partner and nearest neighbour, not devising new semi-clever ways to annoy them further. Sure, she apologized in the House of Commons for her remarks, but she has not apologized to the Americans. And apology or not, yet more damage has been done to a relationship already on the rocks.

We wouldn't have imagined there would be a day in which the word "Canadian" would be tossed around derisively in Washington -- and everyone would immediately know what was meant by it. It's not too late to get Washington back to singing our praises, but it won't happen as long as the likes of Ms. Jennings are speaking on behalf of our country.

© National Post 2005


Let me repeat, for emphasis:

This is what it's come to. Courtesy of Ottawa's hesitant approach to the war on terror, its perfidy on missile defence and the government's predilection for insulting the Americans -- and George W. Bush in particular -- at every turn, U.S. officials now apparently use "Canadian" as a sort of byword for pointless obstructionism and pettiness in foreign affairs. And if the situation is not already bad enough, some Liberals seem unable to stop themselves from making things worse.

Our national government is a failure; its policies are, clearly, directed against the vital interests of our country, they are, rather, designed to appease vocal, active special interest groups within the Liberal Party of Canada.   The Prime Minister of Canada and his ministers are, obviously, negligent in their duties.


 
It is unfortunate that along with a failed govt foreign policy, the majority of our govt opposition (BQ & NDP) are goading on the Liberals to greater heights of irresponsibility. ::)

Blue Max
 
Blue Max said:
It is unfortunate that along with a failed govt foreign policy, the majority of our govt opposition (BQ & NDP) are goading on the Liberals to greater heights of irresponsibility. ::)Blue Max

And to be totally fair, the Conservatives are an absolute diasaster. 

Dave
 
PPCLI Guy said:
And to be totally fair, the Conservatives are an absolute disaster.  

Dave

Too true; someone (Rex Murphy?) said that anyone who could explain Stephen Harper's positions on major issues would be made an honorary Jesuit.

It's a shame, really, because Harper is, I think, an honest, intelligent and thoughtful man.   He is trying too hard to please everyone; or, maybe Jack Layton is right: maybe dithering is contagious.
 
Launch of NATO's Active Layered Theatre Ballistic Missile Defence (ALTBMD) Programme
 
 
(Source: NATO; issued March 16, 2005)
 
 
NATO's Theatre Missile Defence (TMD) Programme has reached a key milestone in Alliance efforts to field an Active Layered Theatre Ballistic Missile Defence (ALTBMD) capability by 2010. 

As a practical example of the ongoing transformation of NATO's military capabilities, on 11 March 2005 the North Atlantic Council approved the Charter for the ALTBMD Programme Management Organisation (PMO). This decision launched the Alliance's ALTBMD Programme, which will provide protection against the threat of ballistic missiles to our soldiers deployed on NATO missions. 

The importance of being able to defend deployed troops against theatre-range ballistic missiles, such as SCUD missiles, was made apparent during the 1990s. As a number of foreign nations continue working on ballistic missile programmes, as well as developing chemical, nuclear, and biological warheads for those missiles, the need for effective defences has increased. 

To counter this threat, NATO has, for the past several years, worked to design a battle management system for theatre missile defences. The system will be able to integrate different TMD systems (such as PATRIOT, the NATO MEADS system, SAMP-T) into a single coherent, deployable defensive network able to give layered protection against incoming ballistic missiles. 

The detailed specifications of the NATO system were agreed by Defence Ministers in Istanbul last June. With the approval of the Charter, the NAC has formally established the TMD Programme Office, paving the way for the financing and purchase of the NATO TMD system. 

The launch of the TMD program is the result of a decade of work by NATO in the theatre missile defence area, and provided to the Alliance a new collective capability for common defence. 

-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

We are still a member of NATO aren't we?
 
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