The 'What If Canada Gets Attacked' Superthread

[medicineman]

20 years ago you might have had your wish.  Wearing of uniforms in Ottawa was rationed to 1 day a week or so I'm told, so as not to scare the straights.  I assume that's been changed.

Interesting - I did my 5's in Ottawa in '92 and my 3's there in 89... I seem to recall we had to wear 3B minimum to and from work, except when I worked at Uplands, when I got to wear garrison dress in, as it was my dress of the day...I call BS.  Incidentally, I used public transport frequently and noticed alot of uniformed service people daily.

MM

 

[Journeyman]

I know that but its just kinda confusing having more than one thread all together.

Just as well that those pesky geopolitical, social, and economic ramifications of a conventional military attack on Canada are so simplisitic and straight-forward. 

        op:

 

[Scott]

Interesting - I did my 5's in Ottawa in '92 and my 3's there in 89... I seem to recall we had to wear 3B minimum to and from work, except when I worked at Uplands, when I got to wear garrison dress in, as it was my dress of the day...I call BS.  Incidentally, I used public transport frequently and noticed alot of uniformed service people daily.

MM

No surprise to me. Dennis likes to do his quiet trolling like that. He knows better but he doesn't stop. But since he's ignored by the very large part of the membership I just leave him alone.

 

[Neill McKay]

Now I have that fookin song stuck in my head, the ad for Marineland...

What are you complaining about?  Everyone loves Marineland.

 

[Old Sweat]

Way back when there was a policy of uniform one day a week. General Dextraze ended it when he became CDS in about 1971. He had a couple of reasons. First, he wanted to know the rank and classification of people he was dealing with, and second, he had a hunch that a number of service members did not have uniforms. (The CF were changing from old pre-unification uniforms to the CF uniform, and a number of members had not bothered.) I also suspect Jadex was not amused by the military civil servant attitude that was rampant at the time.

 

[Neill McKay]

When I started researching military in our nations capital; Ottawa, I found it quite weird that there is not more units than there is.

As others have said, there's a large military presence in Ottawa in the form of National Defence Headquarters -- although that's not a "pointy-end" entity.

Military bases aren't the same thing as old-fashioned forts so are not necessarily located with a view to defending the surrounding area.  If I had to take a guess, I'd say that the two biggest factors are history and logistics, with politics as a close third.

Military bases (and smaller establishments like local armouries) are often located on land that's been used for military purposes for ages.  (And sometimes that dates from a time when it was to defend the local area -- like the armoury in Saint John [NB], which is on a point of land opposite the mouth of the harbour.  But by no means is the Saint John armoury looked at today as a harbour defence establishment.)

Some air force bases were built during the Second World War as training bases for the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan.  They would have been located on terrain that is suitable for an airfield, i.e. lots of flat ground and perhaps decent weather to maximize flying days.  Once you've built an airfield, you're likely going to keep using it as long as you need an air force base anywhere in that area, so several of those were kept open after the war.

CFB Gagetown is a large base in New Brunswick.  Its location was chosen because it provided almost endless miles of forested terrain that could be used to simulate European battlefields, it is an hour away from an ice-free harbour, and it has a good connection to the railway system.  These were all considerations during the cold war when we were preparing to fight the Soviet Union for Europe.

Politics can affect base locations through the usual government practice of putting (or not removing) infrastructure in locations where there is some political advantage to doing so.

 

[kratz]

What are you complaining about?  Everyone loves Marineland.

Driving that theme song home: Everyone Loves Marineland

The park could be considered the training base for our Canadian Marines too. We've already got the killer whales and other mammals trained, so we are good to go.  ;D

 

[Scott]

I'm going to ban the pair of you yardbirds

 

[aesop081]

As others have said, there's a large military presence in Ottawa in the form of National Defence Headquarters -- although that's not a "pointy-end" entity.

There's more to the military in Ottawa than just NDHQ.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We've already been invaded by China. The director of CSIS said so on TV. What are we doing about that?

Not much overtly, but I'm sure the covert actions are ongoing. That's the area where we'll need to make the biggest investments for increased national security in the future IMHO.

 

[Danjanou]

Driving that theme song home: Everyone Loves Marineland

The park could be considered the training base for our Canadian Marines too. We've already got the killer whales and other mammals trained, so we are good to go.  ;D

Can the whales have lazers on their heads just like sharks?  :nod:

 

[medicineman]

Can the whales have lazers on their heads just like sharks?  :nod:

That's supposed to be "lazers" - the quotes are important.

MM

 

[infantryian]

That's supposed to be "lazers" - the quotes are important.

That's supposed to be "lasers" - the spelling is important.

 

[Danjanou]

That's supposed to be "lasers" - the spelling is important.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Having some fun with the original post, so if the US threatened to invade Canada in the 80’s, what orders do think the  UK and German forces stationed in Suffield and Shilo would get? Support Canada, hunker down on their bases? The UN would be in a difficult spot being based in the US, I would what other countries could do to pressure the US in backing down? Like the war in 1812, support for an invasion of Canada would vary across the states, some advocating and some opposed. I suspect the trigger would be something around Trudeau and the NEP, coupled with increased alignment with the Soviets, China, Cuba. (yes the whole thing is a stretch, but I think Trudeau might have taken to kicking the US more if he could) let say he blocked all exports of resource to the South.

The US President would have to act fast before internal dissent paralyzed them. An invasion would be aimed at temporarily crippling us and capturing the PM and cabinet on the pretense that they have being working with the Soviets, likely the US would have quiet support from Elements in the West who would quickly stand up to call for the “freeing of Canada from foreign influences”. Most areas would not be occupied just key components to prevent a counterstrike. Damage to infrastructure and combat with our forces would kept to a minimum. The long term plan would be to hand over the government to a provisional body to prepare for a new round of elections which the current leaders would be barred from.     

 

[Blackadder1916]

Way back when there was a policy of uniform one day a week. General Dextraze ended it when he became CDS in about 1971. He had a couple of reasons. First, he wanted to know the rank and classification of people he was dealing with, and second, he had a hunch that a number of service members did not have uniforms. (The CF were changing from old pre-unification uniforms to the CF uniform, and a number of members had not bothered.) I also suspect Jadex was not amused by the military civil servant attitude that was rampant at the time.

There was additional reason for the change according to a Colonel for whom I worked at NDHQ in the 80s (I think he was only being partially sarcastic).  When it was uniform one day a week, that day was usually Friday.  Supposedly, it was common to see pers in uniform in the market area "strip joints" beginning at Friday lunch time.  When the uniform practice changed and Friday became the day that wearing civvies became optional, the number of pers who partook of the reasonably priced lunch buffets at the peeler bars (yes, that was the reason we all those guys went there) didn't decrease, they just weren't visible as military. 

 

[helpup]

Ok, I just read the merged threads and that was time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, well ,,,,,,,,,,,, spent.

Luckily it is a slow day here.

If Canada gets attacked, by anyone or in this case by the US.  Of course I would try to fight.  It is my job.  But for the original poster, I have to ask before you form an opinion do you actually think about it, or do some research?  You know come up with valid hypothesis and such.  Or do you take a narrow outlook of the world and only listen to things that support that narrow vision.

To the 150 000 Marine partition.  We as a country have looked at incorporating amphibious ability or at least keeping some base level skills somewhat refreshed.  I believe in my career we have done it a few times so call it a once in a decade type of thing.  But come on man what your espousing is more then our total CF numbers have been in over 40 years.  The money to start and maintain another "specialized branch" or unit(s) could be better spent and as many have pointed out not necessarily on the CF.  Good luck in trying to join the CF but realize it is a bigger world out there then what your limited knowledge or wishes make it to be.

And to the school report about lack of military in the capitol..................... C- for research on the subject and hope you take some of the answers here to read more about it.  Ask yourself this though.  Is there really much of a difference in distance to Ottawa from say Northern NY compared to CFB Petawawa and the Brigade we have there.  ..... Coincidence I think not !! >  and considering the tactically sound principal of 3 to 1 odds for any attacker our Brigade could tie up one whole US division, errr I hope they don't bring all of their force multipliers with them though or we may be shocked and awed into a Red Dawn scenario.  But hey I am just trying to point out defence of Ottawa we have covered  :nod:

Now back to spending my time well......

 

[Journeyman]

Is there really much of a difference in distance to Ottawa from say Northern NY compared to CFB Petawawa and the Brigade we have there.  ..... Coincidence I think not !! >  and considering the tactically sound principal of 3 to 1 odds for any attacker our Brigade could tie up one whole US division, errr I hope they don't bring all of their force multipliers with them though or we may be shocked and awed into a Red Dawn scenario.

OK, if the scenario is now a Div from upstate NY (that would make it the 10th Mountain Div) heading for Ottawa, they'd have to fight their way past Kingston first.

In buying time for 2CMBG to mobilze and deploy to blocking positions south of Ottawa, I'd be willing to do my part....basing a defensive position on the Kingston Brewing Company and the Tir Nan Og, with the Pilot House and the Toucan as the secondary prepared positions.

Defending Kingston's taverns to the last pint! 

"WOLVERINES!"  "MORE WINGS!"  :cheers:  :warstory:

 

[Old Sweat]

There was additional reason for the change according to a Colonel for whom I worked at NDHQ in the 80s (I think he was only being partially sarcastic).  When it was uniform one day a week, that day was usually Friday.  Supposedly, it was common to see pers in uniform in the market area "strip joints" beginning at Friday lunch time.  When the uniform practice changed and Friday became the day that wearing civvies became optional, the number of pers who partook of the reasonably priced lunch buffets at the peeler bars (yes, that was the reason we all those guys went there) didn't decrease, they just weren't visible as military.

Actually the different staff branches wore uniforms on different days. In VCDS Branch we wore uniforms on Monday, for example, and everybody wore civvies on Friday. The people who did not have uniforms arranged often arranged a meeting at another government department, which they usually would attend in mufti. At that time Ottawa had not gone through much of the massive new construction we see now, and I am not even sure there were strip joints downtown.

 

[medicineman]

OK, if the scenario is now a Div from upstate NY (that would make it the 10th Mountain Div) heading for Ottawa, they'd have to fight their way past Kingston first.

In buying time for 2CMBG to mobilze and deploy to blocking positions south of Ottawa, I'd be willing to do my part....basing a defensive position on the Kingston Brewing Company and the Tir Nan Og, with the Pilot House and the Toucan as the secondary prepared positions.

Defending Kingston's taverns to the last pint! 

"WOLVERINES!"  "MORE WINGS!"  :cheers:  :warstory:

That remind's me of something that I let out at a mess dinner in Ft Drum...A US major and his really snooty wife were sitting beside me and he'd just got posted to the 10th Mtn Div and was asking about Kingston (I was based there then).  I told him there were museums, Queen's and RMC - I explained what RMC's role was in American terms - and a host other things to see.  His wife was interrupting with very sarcastic statements and I was getting a little annoyed.  I then casually mentioned Ft Henry being there...when the inevitable question came of "Oh what's that?" I just blurted out "It's a place that was built to keep you people out of my country".  The meal was only saved by a Capt who remembered me from a previous occasion and brought up some mess shennanigans that had occured. 

I have to add this in - I was only a Cpl then and someone with a very perverse sense of humour put my girl friend and I at a table where the lowest rank besides me was a Capt.

MM