The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces

[stellarpanther]

Has something changed? During SARS, I rode with my partner. As long as we had our N95s on, it was ok.

CAF mbr's aren't using N95's they've just recently started issuing Cadpat looking masks.  Even medics and doctors aren't wearing N95's when they see patients. They have one of those blue masks they normally told people to put on when they had a cold and some are wearing a face shield.  That part is up to the individual medic/doctor.

 

[Harris]

Saw the issue with civilians first hand the last couple of months.  High priced help was wondering why none of them were on the calls held after 1600.

 

[stellarpanther]

Had some good laughs reading this board.

PLQ - as noted by others needed by everyone.  They just changed it a few years back so that even musicians need it. No matter who you are or where you may need the basic skills taught and marked on the course.  A few days in the field on the standard course is a good assessment and experience for everyone.  The combat folks will get their additional trade course after such as the AJLC (hasn't changed yet hopefully).    I have been saying since at least 2007 that the military has to stop with the over use of acting masters, it is ridiculous to have someone acting 5+ years, send them on a course 3 times only to fail and then take the leaf away.  It was astonishing to sit at a HQ and see the monthly messages come in taking the leaf from people due to course failure.


.  At 1500h when you decide you need someone to stay late to type that report you sat on, on Friday when you decide you need a clerk for the weekend or you need someone to work overtime for any number of tasks you waited on who do you think is going to come in? The civilian may tell you to pound sand, if they do come in you are now paying them overtime thus the savings you touted are gone.    Of course you could always do the clerical work yourself.    Idea went away with a wimper.

Audits - they are the reason we now have 2 trades which many of us pushed when they decided to amalgamate 2 trades and eliminate 1.  Losing all the finance expertise would bite them in the … and it did.  Separating the trades after 20 years again is the attempt to bring back the speciality and improve our audit performance.  It is going to take several years to get back to some similar state we were in before with finance expert.

I assume you're not HRA?  We don't type out reports.letters etc for people, that's been out well before for years.  It reminds me of an older Captain that posted into our unit about 10 years ago and the outgoing Captain was introducing him to us.  One of his comments was "who should I see if I needed something typed out of mailed.  Myself and the Sgt looked at each other and the other Captain spoke up and said "I generally lick my own envelops and if you ask then nice, I doubt they'll type it for you but I'm sure they'll send you the link to the form".  We never had a problem but the Sgt did mention it to the OC who may have said something to him.

As for PLQ, I could be wrong but don't many trades need PLQ before getting promoted?  That might be a good idea.  As you mentioned, some people get promoted, pass mod 1 and wait a year or 2 or even longer. ( supposed to be completed in 2 years) and fail or get injured.  From what I've heard, they usually don't take the leaf away and try to give you more chances to complete it with the home unit hopefully better preparing the mbr for success. I know someone who failed twice now and on the third try got RTU'd for an injury.  Apparently the mbr will get another crack at it. 

 

[mariomike]

CAF mbr's aren't using N95's they've just recently started issuing Cadpat looking masks.  Even medics and doctors aren't wearing N95's when they see patients. They have one of those blue masks they normally told people to put on when they had a cold and some are wearing a face shield.  That part is up to the individual medic/doctor.

I was referring to 9-1-1 calls. They told us "those blue masks" were good enough. When enough guys started getting admitted to ICUs, that's when they issued the N95s.

After that, no Toronto paramedics became ill with SARS.

 

[Cronicbny]

Saw the issue with civilians first hand the last couple of months.  High priced help was wondering why none of them were on the calls held after 1600.

Many asked themselves the same question here when we needed to send Crews into isolation - the civilian members of the crews had to be replaced (at very short notice) with military folks. Some good lessons identified, I think.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We simply need to stop promoting people to MCpl unless they have PLQ, regardless of their trade.

Want someone to be a MCpl? Send them on PLQ then promote them.

Showing up to teach on a leadership course and having your 2IC a MCpl without PLQ is annoying too. We need to stop doing that as well.

 

[stellarpanther]

We simply need to stop promoting people to MCpl unless they have PLQ, regardless of their trade.

Want someone to be a MCpl? Send them on PLQ then promote them.

Showing up to teach on a leadership course and having your 2IC a MCpl without PLQ is annoying too. We need to stop doing that as well.

I agree with you one hundred percent.  The problem is that a lot of people in my trade and FSA and I'm sure others work in an office setting with no field experience at all other than what they learned on BMQ years ago.  They often get no extra training other than you're in charge  of your cell with a Sgt in the office holding a meeting (O group) once or twice a week and you repeat it.  They then go to PLQ and are at the mercy of instructors who they hope will be understanding and teach them what they need to learn to teach.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I know someone who failed twice now and on the third try got RTU'd for an injury.  Apparently the mbr will get another crack at it.

rly:

We, the CAF, have accepted a lower standard for far to long. 

I don't care how great the person is in their occupation;  if that mbr is a A/L MCpl-MS, they should have had it removed after the 2nd failure. 

 

[MilEME09]

Medical RTU'S do not count towards the allowed 3 attempts at PLQ. Because injuries are usually outside the members control.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

3 attempts = too many attempts.  :facepalm:

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=stellarpanther] They then go to PLQ and are at the mercy of instructors who they hope will be understanding and teach them what they need to learn to teach.
[/quote]

There are a bunch of checks and balances to make sure MCpl Clerk doesn't show up on PLQ and Sgt Infantry fails them for not banging off the perfect recce patrol. I want to say all the instructors I know, and myself having been in those shoes, understand the difference between a clerk and a combat arms soldier when it comes to PLQ, or BMOQ-L.

If a clerk, or whoever, doesn't want anything to do with that military crap and just want to be office people I'm sure they can get priority hiring to be a civilian clerk with DND.

I'll concede and say PLQ needs more admin training. Interview and speaking techniques, PDRs and PERs. MS Word, Excel and powerpoint training. Ethics, Op Honour, bystander training.

 

[stellarpanther]

Medical RTU'S do not count towards the allowed 3 attempts at PLQ. Because injuries are usually outside the members control.

That makes sense but there must be a limit?  If a person has osteoarthritis for example in their knee of back, they might be able to get through it with advil or they might tighten up after a few days on the drill square or not be able to do the ground arms properly let alone teach it if they get picked to do that movement.

 

[blacktriangle]

rly:

I don't care how great the person is in their occupation;  if that mbr is a A/L MCpl-MS, they should have had it removed after the 2nd failure.

I think some trades/units feel backed into a corner when their "superstar" A/L MCpl fails off PLQ as it reflects poorly on them. So they want to find a way to push that person through rather than admit a mistake.

 

[stellarpanther]

3 attempts = too many attempts.  :facepalm:

You can think that but I would bet a lot of money that if things were as tough and people held to the rigid standard that it seems you are saying, people would be releasing in even greater numbers than they already are.  I don't know if you're still in or regular or reserve but if you are reg force, you probably know that we have a retention problems at all rank levels but especially at the  MCpl and below level. 

 

[ballz]

Audits - they are the reason we now have 2 trades which many of us pushed when they decided to amalgamate 2 trades and eliminate 1.  Losing all the finance expertise would bite them in the … and it did.  Separating the trades after 20 years again is the attempt to bring back the speciality and improve our audit performance.  It is going to take several years to get back to some similar state we were in before with finance expert.

I didn't know you were such an optimist.

 

[MilEME09]

I think some trades/units feel backed into a corner when their "superstar" A/L MCpl fails off PLQ as it reflects poorly on them. So they want to find a way to push that person through rather than admit a mistake.

Absolutely thats the case. I have seen push beyond push on plq. Personal example, i had a clerk given to me as my 2IC for a VPS, during a hard assessment I was struck with Sniper fire, and two IEDs that split my section in 2. I had 3 radios, one with me, my c9 gunner and my 2IC. After 2 IEDs split my section in 2 my 2IC had the only radio on the other side. Wasn't replying on comms, slowly made my way over there after calling in a 10 liner. Re established contact with section, completed the mission. Found out after the fact my 2ic had a mental break down and fucked off on me which is why I couldn't get them on comms.

Fast forward a few days this same person got a presance patrol, talked to one civi, and scenario over. I got a 60% pass, they got a 86% pass. Our course warrant had nothing to say about it at our ECR.

Pushing on a leadership course should not exist.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Absolutely thats the case. I have seen push beyond push on plq. Personal example, i had a clerk given to me as my 2IC for a VPS, during a hard assessment I was struck with Sniper fire, and two IEDs that split my section in 2. I had 3 radios, one with me, my c9 gunner and my 2IC. After 2 IEDs split my section in 2 my 2IC had the only radio on the other side. Wasn't replying on comms, slowly made my way over there after calling in a 10 liner. Re established contact with section, completed the mission. Found out after the fact my 2ic had a mental break down and fucked off on me which is why I couldn't get them on comms.

Fast forward a few days this same person got a presance patrol, talked to one civi, and scenario over. I got a 60% pass, they got a 86% pass. Our course warrant had nothing to say about it at our ECR.

2IC should have been nailed for a leadership failing and IMO hauled in front of the OC to explain why they should be allowed to remain on the course.

 

[CBH99]

You can think that but I would bet a lot of money that if things were as tough and people held to the rigid standard that it seems you are saying, people would be releasing in even greater numbers than they already are.  I don't know if you're still in or regular or reserve but if you are reg force, you probably know that we have a retention problems at all rank levels but especially at the  MCpl and below level.

You bring up a good point here, especially in regards to the thread of "Post Pandemic CAF".


Assuming our budget is at where it will be at, or possibly trimmed, moving forwards in the post COVID period. 

My question is - what do you folks think we could do/should do to maximize retention, during a period of reduced spending?


Retention can be due to quality of life, quality of working environment (getting jacked up over dumb nonsense, not being treated like a professional, lack of interesting opportunities, etc)

What are some of the doable things, moving into the post-COVID budget environment, do you think would be helpful with improving retention?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You can think that but I would bet a lot of money that if things were as tough and people held to the rigid standard that it seems you are saying, people would be releasing in even greater numbers than they already are.  I don't know if you're still in or regular or reserve but if you are reg force, you probably know that we have a retention problems at all rank levels but especially at the  MCpl and below level.

I'll take some of the weaker (mentally, physically) jnr ranks releasing to make room for those who have the stuff to lead before I'll take lowering the standards anymore.  Like it or not, UoS is a reality of service. 

Lowering the standard isn't the solution if people are that limp-spined that they can't make it through the generic CAF PLQ.  Those individuals need to get off their ass, get in shape so they can handle the course, just like they had to at CFLRS to make it thru Basic.  If the average Jnr NCM is that removed from the realities of wearing a uniform and serving their country, then we need to solve that issue as well.  If they believe 'they are just office workers!' etc and that can't be changed, by all means, see the Release Section.  We can't lower our standards any more than they are for fitness, for junior leadership training.  If we did, soon they'll be totally online courses where people can sit home in their "jammies" and do the course while laying on the couch.

I've taught PLQ.  It should be a challenge to most.  It is supposed to separate those who can from those who can't.  Some just can't.  If they aren't happy with life as a Cpl, get your shit together so you can pass PLQ, accept a Cpl pension, or release.  Life doesn't get easier once the Leaf falls.

 

[PuckChaser]

My question is - what do you folks think we could do/should do to minimize retention, during a period of reduced spending?

Do you mean maximize retention? The CAF is already doing a pretty good job of minimizing how many people they retain every year....