The Post-pandemic Canadian Armed Forces

[MilEME09]

Perhaps we will get someone with a truely good idea start merging or eliminating unnecessary HQ's?

 

[stellarpanther]

I don't think cutting PLQ will save as much money as you think. Want to save $25M a year? MAPLE RESOLVE is a pretty good target. Postings are a probably pretty good one too at roughly $200K (I've heard) a pop for a cross country move.

I assume you meant to say 20k right?  About 7-8 years ago I heard it was approx. 20k so it's probably closer to 30k now if that old figure was right.  I can defiantly see moves being affected.  I've already been hearing that people that need to be moved for things such as promotions are being moved closer to where they are currently posted if possible to try to save money.

 

[dimsum]

I assume you meant to say 20k right?  About 7-8 years ago I heard it was approx. 20k so it's probably closer to 30k now if that old figure was right.  I can defiantly see moves being affected.  I've already been hearing that people that need to be moved for things such as promotions are being moved closer to where they are currently posted if possible to try to save money.

Completely anecdotal, but each of my handful of OUTCAN friends have had their postings extended.

 

[stellarpanther]

Completely anecdotal, but each of my handful of OUTCAN friends have had their postings extended.

My personal thinking on this is that if we have a second wave which a lot of experts think is a certainty, we will be in the same situation next APS as well.

 

[MilEME09]

Any one with a RCAF background want to chime in on what cuts may happen on that side of the house? Could flight hours be cut back to save cost on fuel? what is the minimum flight hours most pilots require?

 

[PuckChaser]

I assume you meant to say 20k right?  About 7-8 years ago I heard it was approx. 20k so it's probably closer to 30k now if that old figure was right.  I can defiantly see moves being affected.  I've already been hearing that people that need to be moved for things such as promotions are being moved closer to where they are currently posted if possible to try to save money.

Yeah, I might have been thinking of my buddy's OUTCAN. That's probably a real good target to reduce money.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Any one with a RCAF background want to chime in on what cuts may happen on that side of the house? Could flight hours be cut back to save cost on fuel? what is the minimum flight hours most pilots require?

It's too early to say what cuts will occur.  It will all depend on the economic recovery.  Many are saying we may be in for a V Shaped economic recovery. 

Q2 results will most likely be terrible but we need to see what the effects are in Q3 and Q4 before any hard decisions will be made.

My investments have been on fire and the banks are well positioned to weather the storm so it may not be as bad as some people think.

As well, CRA has begun cracking down on the CERB and other COVID 19 related benefits.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I don't think they will touch PLD or anything that will have a huge quality of life affect on families.

There is something in the works with PLD. I don't know exactly what, but the next ECE (whatever that is) won't happen without a PLD restructuring. This is according to several presentations I found buried on the Sharepoint site. This was happening before the COVID came to town.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Any one with a RCAF background want to chime in on what cuts may happen on that side of the house? Could flight hours be cut back to save cost on fuel? what is the minimum flight hours most pilots require?

Flying training and maintenance of tickets/categories will continue.  Each fleet has specific requirements to 'maintain currency', but some cuts to YFR (yearly flying rates) could happen while not affecting currency.

Currency is not the same as proficiency, however. A cut in YFR would potentially cut into proficiency.  There is some mitigation with simulation, but simulation is not the same as being airborne.

Those currency requirements exist for all aircrew, not just pilots so flying will continue.  Is a cut to YFR possible?  Certainly. Maybe cut back on some exercises (sending an Aurora Det away from 3-4 weeks is a nice chuck of change, as an example).

Core capabilities and currency requirements will continue as before (my opinion).  It costs more to re-gain a currency in most cases than to maintain one.

Quick/dirty answer...

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I don't want to re-initiate a thread hijack, but HRAs can absolutely find themselves in command of a Garrison Auxiliary Security Force (GASF) section.  They can also find themselves instructing on courses. All that to say, PLQ is a bone fide requirement.

 

[ballz]

I'm a proponent of "soldier first" and a course like PLQ, however if our performance on internal audits over the past 5 or so years is any indication, we should probably care more about FSAs knowing how to pay an invoice and less about their ability to do a recce patrol. It is "soldier first" and not "rifleman first" after all.

Let's not have tactical/operational risks cloud our ability to think about institutional/strategic-level risks. If we think it's bad now, wait until the AG cleans the DND's clock with an audit...

You'd think though that with all the technology we have, we'd be able to find more ways of keeping our HR and Finance professionals out of high-threat environments.

You would think that but you'd be wrong. It took a global pandemic for ADM(Fin) to finally allow e-signatures.... and only for five documents mind you, the rest you still have to sign with a chisel. I am sure there are bunch of finance weenies on pins and needles right now over e-signatures being used, despite the fact that they will accept an email as evidence of financial authority (which can be forged in about 3 seconds with the CDS's signature block on them).

If CJOC has been any indication, we can't even tie our own shoes without an FSA to do it for us. I think they must be using them as rifleman they require so many.

 

[MilEME09]

If you want to save money in regards to PLQ, stop sending people who aren't ready to go, be more selective with who we want as leaders. I witnessed people being sent on plq simply because the only position open to keep them at a unit was a MCpl. This kind of disregard for why we have leadership training needs to stop.

 

[Furniture]

What cuts if any do people see happening in the CAF/DND?  A few of us were having a private chat on FB over the last few days and we were thinking about courses that could be cut.  PLQ was one that a couple people thought about for certain trades.  Like all courses, they're expensive when you think about transportation, meals, housing and everything else and for many trades, useless.  Take for example and HRA or FSA and some others.  They get promoted, do the job as a MCpl for up to two years and sometimes longer depending on availability or injury/illness and then go back and keep doing the same job they did prior to going on course.  Learning section attacks, giving O groups etc doesn't train us to be better supervisors in the OR.  The only think I can think is beneficial is learning to teach a lesson and that can probably be done at the unit level. There are probably many other courses as well.

I'm a bit late to the party, but let me tell you a story about a young Met Tech.

Back in Sep '06 I was tasked to join D Bty 2 RCHA on a deployment to Kandahar the following Feb. As a Met Tech I had never been to the field, my last time sleeping in tents and carrying a rifle was basic training nearly 6 years prior. I lucked out since my Sgt, and Mcpl that were both OTs from the infantry, so on our first field ex in Gagetown I was brought back up to speed on the basics of fieldcraft. After that is was IBTS training with the NCE guys(I was a late addition and missed the BG training in Pet).

Fast forward to Oct/Nov in Wainwright, and we were supposed to be doing the full "work up" training for Kandahar. Unfortunately the gunners were rotating the troops through live fire training, and needed Met data, so I spent the entire exercise launching weather balloons rather than doing training.

Now it's Feb '07, and I'm sitting in the back of a Bison(first time ever) as we roll down the roads leading from KAF to Spur. We do a long halt for a vehicle breakdown, and I have no idea what to do. I'd never done a long halt in training... The night unfolds as a near continuous comedy of errors, with the drive to Spur taking many hours. I learned more about what to do in a convoy during that CLP than I had in the months leading up to the deployment. 

The first time I drew a range card was sitting in the middle of the Maywand district, in the CC hatch of my Bison(I was now CC of the Met Bison) with a Gunner sitting beside me explaining what to do.

The first time I fired a C6 was in theatre, the same C6 I used as CC. Also drove the Bison though I was only qualified TLAV...

I could go on, but the point is, as a Met Tech I was woefully unprepared to be in the field in theatre. Other support trades found themselves in the same situation, and as a result of that all the soldiering stuff was added to PLQ.

So if you want someone to blame for having to learn at how to lead a section attack, give orders, etc. blame me.

 

[stellarpanther]

No risk of field time for that friend eh?

I'm not sure how an infantry soldier or anyone else for that matter already assigned to a field unit will be dealt with.  What about someone assigned to a ship?  They're packed in like sardines and definitely can't really social distance too well.

 

[MilEME09]

I'm a bit late to the party, but let me tell you a story about a young Met Tech.

Back in Sep '06 I was tasked to join D Bty 2 RCHA on a deployment to Kandahar the following Feb. As a Met Tech I had never been to the field, my last time sleeping in tents and carrying a rifle was basic training nearly 6 years prior. I lucked out since my Sgt, and Mcpl that were both OTs from the infantry, so on our first field ex in Gagetown I was brought back up to speed on the basics of fieldcraft. After that is was IBTS training with the NCE guys(I was a late addition and missed the BG training in Pet).

Fast forward to Oct/Nov in Wainwright, and we were supposed to be doing the full "work up" training for Kandahar. Unfortunately the gunners were rotating the troops through live fire training, and needed Met data, so I spent the entire exercise launching weather balloons rather than doing training.

Now it's Feb '07, and I'm sitting in the back of a Bison(first time ever) as we roll down the roads leading from KAF to Spur. We do a long halt for a vehicle breakdown, and I have no idea what to do. I'd never done a long halt in training... The night unfolds as a near continuous comedy of errors, with the drive to Spur taking many hours. I learned more about what to do in a convoy during that CLP than I had in the months leading up to the deployment. 

The first time I drew a range card was sitting in the middle of the Maywand district, in the CC hatch of my Bison(I was now CC of the Met Bison) with a Gunner sitting beside me explaining what to do.

The first time I fired a C6 was in theatre, the same C6 I used as CC. Also drove the Bison though I was only qualified TLAV...

I could go on, but the point is, as a Met Tech I was woefully unprepared to be in the field in theatre. Other support trades found themselves in the same situation, and as a result of that all the soldiering stuff was added to PLQ.

So if you want someone to blame for having to learn at how to lead a section attack, give orders, etc. blame me.

To add another story to that, one of my old instructors, who is now probably a warrant at 1 svc, was in the stan in the late 2000's, Weapons tech with the strats. QRF call came in, they were short a few people, well the vehicle tech should know how to drive, and the weapons tech should know how to load the gun, so they grabbed the techs, threw them in the tank and off they went. Just because it isn't your trade doesn't mean you will not do it.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I'm not sure how an infantry soldier or anyone else for that matter already assigned to a field unit will be dealt with.  What about someone assigned to a ship?  They're packed in like sardines and definitely can't really social distance too well.

The Navy has already sailed multiple ships, safely, in this new COVID environment.  There is a plan.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm not sure how an infantry soldier or anyone else for that matter already assigned to a field unit will be dealt with.  What about someone assigned to a ship?  They're packed in like sardines and definitely can't really social distance too well.

With those 2 meter MELs you can't even drive in a car with someone.

 

[mariomike]

With those 2 meter MELs you can't even drive in a car with someone.

Has something changed? During SARS, I rode with my partner. As long as we had our N95s on, it was ok.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Has something changed? During SARS, I rode with my partner. As long as we had our N95s on, it was ok.

Different ball park my friend. You driving around during SARS isn't you being a member of the CAF with Medical Employment Limitation saying ordering you to remain 2 meters from everyone else where you and your chain of command are obligated to abide by it.

If I put someone with that chit in a military vehicle to transport them somewhere I would be violating their MELs (it doesn't say anything about N95 masks).
If I sent someone with that chit to the range and didn't have a hand washing station set up for them I would be violating their MELs.

 

[CountDC]

Had some good laughs reading this board.

PLQ - as noted by others needed by everyone.  They just changed it a few years back so that even musicians need it. No matter who you are or where you may need the basic skills taught and marked on the course.  A few days in the field on the standard course is a good assessment and experience for everyone.  The combat folks will get their additional trade course after such as the AJLC (hasn't changed yet hopefully).    I have been saying since at least 2007 that the military has to stop with the over use of acting masters, it is ridiculous to have someone acting 5+ years, send them on a course 3 times only to fail and then take the leaf away.  It was astonishing to sit at a HQ and see the monthly messages come in taking the leaf from people due to course failure.

Moves - they were already largely cut back around 2012 give or take a few years.  Current CFM is $39k for a domestic in Canada move.  High end now is $74k for a move from Canada to outcan (outside North America).  In 2011/2012 I was billing an OGD $50k for outcan posting moves which was fairly close to the actuals I tracked.

Every time the talk of HRA and FSA cuts comes up it reminds me of the joke while in Ottawa.  Some nice young officers thought it was great idea to replace the military clerks with civilians and save money.  Presenting the idea they were asked one question they didn't take into account.  At 1500h when you decide you need someone to stay late to type that report you sat on, on Friday when you decide you need a clerk for the weekend or you need someone to work overtime for any number of tasks you waited on who do you think is going to come in? The civilian may tell you to pound sand, if they do come in you are now paying them overtime thus the savings you touted are gone.    Of course you could always do the clerical work yourself.    Idea went away with a wimper.

Audits - they are the reason we now have 2 trades which many of us pushed when they decided to amalgamate 2 trades and eliminate 1.  Losing all the finance expertise would bite them in the … and it did.  Separating the trades after 20 years again is the attempt to bring back the speciality and improve our audit performance.  It is going to take several years to get back to some similar state we were in before with finance expert.