The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged

[George Wallace]

But why can't they think for themselves instead of acting like mindless automatons?
Surely the security guard in question could have asked his superiors if it would be ok for this man, a veteran no less, to sell some poppies on their property?
And I don't want to hear the old "they're not paid enough to think for themselves" excuse because it is as irrelevant as it is insulting.
Just my 2c, spend them where you will.

"Job Security"

Do as they are told, or be unemployed. 

Some have initiative, and would have questioned the gentleman and then spoken to their superiors, rather than blindly following orders and kicking the gentleman out.  Others don't have those skills.  Guess which ones we just witnessed?

 

[Greymatters]

But why can't they think for themselves instead of acting like mindless automatons?
Surely the security guard in question could have asked his superiors if it would be ok for this man, a veteran no less, to sell some poppies on their property?
And I don't want to hear the old "they're not paid enough to think for themselves" excuse because it is as irrelevant as it is insulting.
Just my 2c, spend them where you will.  

It must be surprising to you then that (most) security guards can think for themselves.

However, the people they work for (the clients, not company that hires the guards) are usually the ones who think security guards are mindless automatons.  The security guards are hired to carry out client policies, and if the client says 'get him off the property' thats what they are paid to do, the same way a lawyer sues somebody when a client tells him to, or an accountant files an invoice when the client say to.  

As long as lines of conduct are followed, they are not doing anything legally or ethically wrong.  It also means that the person giving the order (the client) is the one who is at fault here.  You should also note that even the Legion rep said that it is normal for persons collecting donations to coord their activities with stores so as not to get mistaken for panhandlers and con artits.

You should also note that they didnt beat the person up or abuse him.  Im sure the person they offended would have said so if they had.  They politely asked him to leave and he did.  If the client had asked them to do this (use excessive force), then I would expect almost any security guard to refuse.  That is the difference between what they did ("their job") and what you are suggesting they didnt do ("think for themselves").

Of course, these same guards also have the option of not doing what the client says, in which case they have the option to be fired and try to find work somewhere else.  But people like to have a job so they can feed their families, so not everyone can afford to act on a high moral plain.  

To sum up, I dont think the guy should have been evicted either, but its not my store, and its certainly not the security guards fault.  As a result, I think your 2 cents have been devalued, now worth about 0.5 cents, and I left it in the tip jar...

 

[Greymatters]

"Job Security"

Do as they are told, or be unemployed. 

Some have initiative, and would have questioned the gentleman and then spoken to their superiors, rather than blindly following orders and kicking the gentleman out.  Others don't have those skills.  Guess which ones we just witnessed?

Option B) - they told the client and he said "get rid of him anyway"...

 

[SupersonicMax]

IMHO, the canvassers should request permission from the organizations before they set up on their grounds.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

My feelings regarding this issue is this.

The country knows damn well that Rememberance day is coming up, and with that the Vets are going to be making thier appearances and the poppies will be presented for donations. Show immediate respect for the sacrifices they endured for our way of life and let them be. Be proud as a Canadian that people such as this are still able to walk amongst us and share thier memories and feelings knowing that they are not forgotten nor disrespected in any such manner as this again.

There should be a law against this type of ignorance and stupidity.




edit for spelling...

 

[Edward Campbell]

SupersonicMax is, broadly, correct. Solicitation campaigns ought to have permission to do their business on private property. But, SanfuBar's point is also well taken: a couple of annual campaigns, including the Remembrance Day poppy drive, are so well known as to merit a little line or two of their own in all corporate rule books. Those who decide not to allow the campaign should tell the Royal Canadian Legion, thus avoiding the bad publicity that inevitably results from situations like this. While the onus ought to be on the Legion, in practice, it needs to be with the companies.

This happens every year; every year the corporations concerned climb down and all is well - despite a few ruffled feathers (amongst vets) and a few red faces (in corporate offices).

But, no there ought not to be a law. We have enough laws that are not enforced and, anyway, you cannot legislate against stupidity.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There should be a law against this type of ignorance and stupidity.

And what would the rest of us do after everyone else was charged and incarcerated?

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Enjoy the peace and quiet  ;D

 

[Strike]

I've spent enough weekends tagging and selling poppies.  Both the Navy League (tagging) and Legion ALWAYS organized where we were going to be canvassing and ALWAYS got permission from the stores/companies.  They even went so far as to tell the city where we were going to be stationed on Princess St as a matter of courtesy.

Yes, it should really be common sense that the Legion will be sending people out during the poppie drive, but the Legion has a responsibility to contact the businesses they want to canvass at.  This will only help to cover their own a$$ in case some imposter decides to try and make a few bucks doing the same thing.  Yes, it happens.  For any Legion not to do this I see as them being either incredibly naive or arrogant.  (Note on this last remark I mean the people organizing the drive and not the whole organization.  I have also seen this happen and cause a Legion to go under, but that's a whole other ball of wax.)

 

[karl28]

            It's just sad that we as a nation have come to this point ( where we need a permission form for every single thing ).  I really feel for this veteran but at the same time I don't blame the security guard he has a job and he has to do weather he likes it or not .  I think upper management should use some common sense in this case a simple phone call to the Veteran's legion to verify that the person had the right to be there would of avoided this whole situation.


  just my two cents

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Vets should have the rights to go ANYWHERE they damn well please in this country. The rest of us only need to move out of thier way and appreciate what they done for us and our country.

As for the asshats at Hudson Bankrupt Co. and the Property mis-management company, I hope they learned thier damn lesson. 


Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

Vets should have the rights to go ANYWHERE they damn well please in this country.

Interesting sentiment.  And how do you identify all of these "Vets"?  Look at all of the "posers" that are out there dressed up and wearing phoney medals.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

If they can make a photo health or drivers liscense they can do the same for the veterans so they can produce a legit piece of ID. This country should be willing to provide these individuals for the sake of instances such as this. Or any others in the future.

I know uni's are being duped as well as some of the medals so that's not the issue with identifiying these people, however a legit Ottawa issued Veterans card would be the right way to go with regards to making sure that Vets can produce a valid card proving they are who they are and that should be sufficient enough.

Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

If they can make a photo health or drivers liscense they can do the same for the veterans so they can produce a legit piece of ID. This country should be willing to provide these individuals for the sake of instances such as this. Or any others in the future.

I know uni's are being duped as well as some of the medals so that's not the issue with identifiying these people, however a legit Ottawa issued Veterans card would be the right way to go with regards to making sure that Vets can produce a valid card proving they are who they are and that should be sufficient enough.

Cheers.

So you are suggesting that "Vets" be "carded" to prove who they are?

Just like you when you go to a club?  How old were you when you went the first time, and was it your real ID?

 

[The Bread Guy]

If they can make a photo health or drivers liscense they can do the same for the veterans so they can produce a legit piece of ID. This country should be willing to provide these individuals for the sake of instances such as this. Or any others in the future.

I know uni's are being duped as well as some of the medals so that's not the issue with identifiying these people, however a legit Ottawa issued Veterans card would be the right way to go with regards to making sure that Vets can produce a valid card proving they are who they are and that should be sufficient enough.

And how about fundraising?  Will this card allow fundraising without proof of sanction by the organization?

I hear you re:  someone selling poppies getting turfed, I agree the building managers may have handled it better, and I'm glad to see the thread title changed to let the guards off the hook.  

All that said, though, I also agree that any fundraising organization probably knows better than to send people off soliciting funds in privately-owned-and-managed buildings without checking first.  How would a Legion feel about an impromptu, unannounced fundraiser dropping by to collect money in the facility without asking permission?  I've done tag sales in Cadets, and we NEVER went into a mall without either 1)  being told permission had been obtained, or 2)  speaking to management and getting an OK.

 

[medaid]

Snafu-bar, you've obviously never worked in the private securities industries, and you can't seem to read either. HBC's in house propriety security (Loss Prevention) was NOT involved in this incident, so you've got nothing on them. The company who managed the property had already issued a statement expressing their regret in the situation. They said sorry. It was a legitimate mistake, and the guard who did their job in carrying out the client's wishes should NOT be blamed for that.

You're out of line with your comments with regards to private security.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

So you are suggesting that "Vets" be "carded" to prove who they are?

Just like you when you go to a club?  How old were you when you went the first time, and was it your real ID?

I'm not suggesting they BE carded, I am however pointing out that having an issued card as proof of thier service should they wish to produce it in times of "ignorance" by some asshat who has no respect for these individuals.

As for going to a club and getting carded, I was 17 and was never carded,ironically till I turned 19. And no i never used fake ID.

Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

However......Just to make you (Snafu-Bar) happy; DND has been issuing Retired Service Members cards for years. 

 

[SupersonicMax]

Snafu, I think we will agree that vets fought to get and keep the freedoms we can enjoy day to day.  It's ones freedom to refuse to have vet soliciting on their premises.  Like it or not, this is for what they fought and we fight.  Being a vet or a service person doesn't give him/her any special right as if he/she is above others.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Snafu-bar, you've obviously never worked in the private securities industries, and you can't seem to read either. HBC's in house propriety security (Loss Prevention) was NOT involved in this incident, so you've got nothing on them. The company who managed the property had already issued a statement expressing their regret in the situation. They said sorry. It was a legitimate mistake, and the guard who did their job in carrying out the client's wishes should NOT be blamed for that.

You're out of line with your comments with regards to private security.

Pardon me for taking the Vet's side of this, I guess i feel the lack of respect is a little bit much for people who take thier freedom and liberties without thinking why and how they got them. I guess when i created the thread i should have said "Vet Disrespected by HB Co."

Cheers