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The Optimal Battle Group vs. the Affiliated Battle Group

Could this OBG be the death of the Regimental system as we know it in Canada? Suppose this experiment with 2RCR is decided to be the way LFC wants the Army to run, and each infantry Battalion was re-tooled to this, what happens to the Regimental identities to the Regiments directly involved? For example, 1RCR, 2RCR and 3RCR are all given a Squadron of RCD to be folded into the Battalion proper as assets at the Battalion CO's control. Now what would happen to the actual Regiment of the RCD? Their Squadrons are parcelled out to 3 separate RCR infantry Battalions, would there then be any requirement for a CO RCD? RSM? Regimental Headquarters? If these Squadrons are under an infantry CO's command, what role would there even be for the RCD RHQ?

I'm asking this out of a genuine curiosity as to what would happen to the combat arms Units that would be dismembered to fill out the ORBAT of these beefed up infantry battalions. Thoughts or opinions?
 
Good question, without an answer right now.

But think of this:  If we make a unit "All Arms, all the time" do the CO and RSM then have to be infantry?  Or could 2 RCR be commanded by an Armour officer, with a Combat Engineer as his RSM?
 
dapaterson said:
Good question, without an answer right now.

But think of this:  If we make a unit "All Arms, all the time" do the CO and RSM then have to be infantry?  Or could 2 RCR be commanded by an Armour officer, with a Combat Engineer as his RSM?

I know of one Engineer Unit with an Infantry CWO as their RSM and they seem to work ok.
 
That's where I go back to my previous post from months ago abot how to name these new battle groups.  Why not make them mini-brigade groups so to speak?  Identity wise I mean. Then the regimental traditions are maintained by sub-units and the battle group headquarters consist of officers and NCM's from all trades.  The battle group commander and RSM would be infantry or armour, since the engineer and artillery LCol's and RSM's would be maintained at brigade level in the FSCC and ESCC similar to the Commander Royal Artillery and Commander Royal Engineers found in WW2 divisions.  Each of the battle groups would be number 1-2-3 in 1 Brigade, 4-5-6 in 2 Brigade, etc.

Example:  2 RCR would become 4 Canadian Battle Group

Battle Group Headquarters & Signal Troop
Golf Company, Royal Canadian Regiment
Hotel Company, Royal Canadian Regiment
India Company, Royal Canadian Regiment
C Squadron, Royal Canadian Dragoons
E Battery, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery
22 Combat Engineer Squadron
4 Service Company
4 Field Ambulance Platoon


At the brigade level the Service Battalion could be renamed Brigade Support Group and include the Engineer Support Squadron from the now dissolved CER.  The Field Ambulance could be renamed Health Services Group to stick with the whole "group" theory. 
 
Alot of people will resist change at all cost. Which is too bad.

Changes have happened to armies throughout history. Uniforms, tactics, weapons, etc, etc. Sometimes units get folded all together, happens.

Maybe the Infantry Branch and the Armour Branch will be folded into the Combat Arms Branch. I know some people will scream they are corps but on paper in the CF they are listed as branches.

Look at the new US brigade Combat Team structures 9especially the heavy brigades) you will see some big changes. In the HBCT they have combined arms units which have 2 x infantry companies and 2 x tank companies.

Will we follow suit with a similar system?
 
ArmyRick said:
Alot of people will resist change at all cost. Which is too bad.

Changes have happened to armies throughout history. Uniforms, tactics, weapons, etc, etc. Sometimes units get folded all together, happens.

Maybe the Infantry Branch and the Armour Branch will be folded into the Combat Arms Branch. I know some people will scream they are corps but on paper in the CF they are listed as branches.

Look at the new US brigade Combat Team structures 9especially the heavy brigades) you will see some big changes. In the HBCT they have combined arms units which have 2 x infantry companies and 2 x tank companies.

Will we follow suit with a similar system?

Assuming we can address manning issues I think what you describe above is ideal to a certain extent.  However I think it would be a mistake to fold the combat arms branches as each branch has the expertise required to ensure training occurs to a certain standard ect... Rather then folding things in, it may be better to integrate things better.  For example, and this is just off the top of my head, but perhaps as part of a final ex for courses we start integrating the various arms.  This will give newer members some valuable perspective on combined arms operations and remind them that they are not working in their own little bubble.  More importantly however, this would force the respective schools to coordinate and integrate field ex's.  This all by itself can pave the way to optimum integration, hopefully without sacrificing those aspects that the branches do best.

What may end up being sacrificed in this system is the regimental system.  As I see it, that would be the most challenging aspect of the old setup to incorporate.
 
ltmaverick25 said:
Assuming we can address manning issues I think what you describe above is ideal to a certain extent.  However I think it would be a mistake to fold the combat arms branches as each branch has the expertise required to ensure training occurs to a certain standard ect... Rather then folding things in, it may be better to integrate things better.  For example, and this is just off the top of my head, but perhaps as part of a final ex for courses we start integrating the various arms.   This will give newer members some valuable perspective on combined arms operations and remind them that they are not working in their own little bubble.  More importantly however, this would force the respective schools to coordinate and integrate field ex's.  This all by itself can pave the way to optimum integration, hopefully without sacrificing those aspects that the branches do best.

What may end up being sacrificed in this system is the regimental system.  As I see it, that would be the most challenging aspect of the old setup to incorporate.
What you propose there is exactly how Phase IV ended at the Combat Training Centre, until 2000.  From 2001 and on, the various schools held their own final exercises.  I think that there is a move afoot to bring back what you propose, however.

 
Mortarman Rockpainter said:
What you propose there is exactly how Phase IV ended at the Combat Training Centre, until 2000.  From 2001 and on, the various schools held their own final exercises.  I think that there is a move afoot to bring back what you propose, however.

Lets hope they do bring it back.  Any idea why they scrapped it in the first place?  I am willing to be that they could not make it work administratively or logistically.  To me, our ability to conduct admin and logistics is our single greatest weakness right now.
 
When I did my Phase IV (in 2000), the Infantry Phase was still in M-113 APCs.  2001 was the first year for the LAV 3, and as a result of adding the Gunner/Crew Commander courses (since replaced, thank God!), the courses didn't end at the same time.  Then the Armour School went from tank-centric to Armd Recce-centric, and the whole thing just sort of fell to the wayside.

A few years ago they had the first integration of the "Final" ex (it was final ex for Armd Offr, but not for Inf Offr), and as a result, I think that the schools are working on better "fusion" for more "synergy" at the end of Phase IV


(See how I used those buzzwords?  God, sometimes I scare even myself!!!)
 
MR:  Using all those buzzwords, you're almost ready to become a senior officer. You just have to stop knowing what they mean and using them correctly, then you'll be ready...
 
dapaterson said:
MR:  Using all those buzzwords, you're almost ready to become a senior officer. You just have to stop knowing what they mean and using them correctly, then you'll be ready...
Well, by task-tailoring all my enablers, in a Joint Integrated Multinational Public (or "JIMP") environment, I'm fairly certain that the integration of my personal self with the heightened resource rich and command centric majority, I too could find myself leading the cutting edge of troops to task.
(Translation: If I suck up enough, I could get promoted)
;D
 
Brown Bess - 3 Rounds per minute at 50 yards effective, unaimed
Lee Enfield - 15 Rounds per minute at 300 yards effective, aimed
C6 - 200 Rounds per minute at 1000 m/y, aimed(area)

The Regimental System grew up in an era where it took 1000 men to put down fire at the rate of 3000 RPM over a 50 yard zone of influence. - A Battalion

By World War 1 it only took 200 men to acheive the same rate of fire. - A Company
But the zone of influence had expanded by a factor of 6 squared or 36.  One  Company was commanding the same ground as 36 Wellington era Battalions. - or A Corps of 36,000 men
The only counter was to send in more targets as the single  Company was still only equal to 1 Battalion

Now, it takes 15 troops armed with C6s to acheive 3000 RPM over a 1000 yard zone of influence.  l'll allow for the No.2 and call it a Platooon (30 men).
Their zone of influence at Suffield (ie not allowing for shrubbery and dead ground) is 400 times greater than a Wellington Battalion. ((1000/50)squared).
That single Platoon is now capable of exerting influence over an area equivalent to that influenced by 400 Wellington Battalions (4/Brigade, 12/Division, 36/Corps. 108/Army, 324 Army Group - and I'lll stop there and allow the rest as supernumaries).

Now I know that that is a numbers exercise, and in the real world the MG Platoon can't cover that area because of dead ground, nor does it have 400,000 pairs of eyes to be able to maintain a watch, nor does it have 400,000 bodies to police the area or to launch an assault.

But on the two simple metrics of laying down fire, rate of fire and effective range, then an MG Platoon now supplies the same support as a Wellington Battalion over an area (in a low intensity environment) that Wellington would have needed at least a Division or Corps to acheive a similar effect (supporting musket calibre fire).

At one level, using the business world's model that argues for making the MG  Platoon at least a LCol's billet, if not a Field Marshall, where the Boss is supposedly paid on the basis of responsibility for what he can do.  Not on the basis of how many men he is responsible for.

At the other level, there are still many jobs that Her Majesty requires of her soldiers that still require one-to-one service.  ie the soldier's zone of influence is reduced to his/her arm's length.  In those instances only large numbers will meet the need.

Unfortunately most of those tasks are not related to killing.  They are not related to fire support.  If the Infantry is challenged consider the poor artillery who has gone from muzzle loaded 6 pounders firing over open sights to Predators loitering for 24 hours any where in the world with Hellfires being controlled from an air conditioned room in Nevada.  How many Bombardiers and LCols do you need then?

The tasks are not even related to supplying the force.  In their case it is not just a case of PLS Trucks and RTFLs replacing horse drawn wagons (and one wagon in 3 supplying feed for the horses) and strong backs.  It is the fact that they need to deliver the same number of rounds but to fewer troops (who need less food, water and spares) spread over a wider area.  What is the appropriate MGen to RTFL ratio?

The one area where the old regimental  requirement can be justifiably maintained is in "Constabulary Duties"  aka  "Peace-Keeping".  There you still need the ability to act one on one with the THREAT of deadly force.  But you need the bodies to be able to conduct a human dialog face to face that will convince the other side of unruly rioters to back down and not lift a fist.

An MG Platoon, in that case can do an Amritsar on the crowd.  But it can't persuade them to pack up and go home without slaughtering them.  

If the Army is just about supplying deadly force is support of HMG's aims then a small army with few troops and lots of Generals meets the needs.

If the Army wants to supply a broader range of options, including non-violent or less lethal options then it needs lots of troops with fewer Generals.

And now back to your discussion about Wellingtonian Cap Badges in the ABG/OBG.
 
Mortarman Rockpainter said:
Well, by task-tailoring all my enablers, in a Joint Integrated Multinational Public (or "JIMP") environment, I'm fairly certain that the integration of my personal self with the heightened resource rich and command centric majority, I too could find myself leading the cutting edge of troops to task.
(Translation: If I suck up enough, I could get promoted)
;D

Staff weenies are just so cute!
 
dapaterson said:
Staff weenies are just so cute!

I understand using permethrin treated uniforms and bug bars can keep staff weenies from infesting your workspace.... ;)
 
Thucydides said:
I understand using permethrin treated uniforms and bug bars can keep staff weenies from infesting your workspace.... ;)

Nope.  Nothing scares away staff weenies as much as real work...
 
Actually, staff weenies enjoy hard work.  It's the STUPID work that scares us! ;D
 
ArmyRick said:
Alot of people will resist change at all cost. Which is too bad.

Changes have happened to armies throughout history. Uniforms, tactics, weapons, etc, etc. Sometimes units get folded all together, happens.

Maybe the Infantry Branch and the Armour Branch will be folded into the Combat Arms Branch. I know some people will scream they are corps but on paper in the CF they are listed as branches.

Look at the new US brigade Combat Team structures 9especially the heavy brigades) you will see some big changes. In the HBCT they have combined arms units which have 2 x infantry companies and 2 x tank companies.

Will we follow suit with a similar system?

Exactly.  The US Army Combined Arms Battalion also adds a Combat Engineer Company with two combat engineer platoons (field troops) and an assault & barrier platoon (close support troop).  As well as mortar, recce and medical platoons in the Headquarters Company.  It also has an attached Forward Support Company from the Brigade Support Battalion with a support platoon (supply & transport) and a maintenance platoon. This is where I took the organization for the battle group in my previous posts. 

The Future Combat System Combined Arms Battalion has re-classified the mortars as a 'battery' rather than a 'platoon' with 8 120mm self-propelled mortars and the recce element as a 'troop' (US Company-size sub-unit = to our squadron) with 10 Reconnaissance & Surveillance variants of the FCS.   

Furthermore, if the Infantry and Armour Branches/Corps are consolidated into a single Combat Arms branch couldn't the infantry LAV-III's be crewed by Armoured Soldiers.  This would require mixed platoons and would mess with cap badges but essentially would streamlining skills.  I don't mean separate APC sections/platoons, just maintain the current platoons but slide armoured soldiers into the crew positions.  Then infantrymen wouldn't be bouncing back and forth between dismounted and vehicle crewman throughout his career.  The Combat Arms Branch could essential be split in two MOC's: dismount (infantry) and mounted (armour) allowing for more specialization and streamlined career progression, similar to the how the artillery is one branch/regiment but splits into field and air defence MOCs.
 
Mountie said:
Furthermore, if the Infantry and Armour Branches/Corps are consolidated into a single Combat Arms branch couldn't the infantry LAV-III's be crewed by Armoured Soldiers.  This would require mixed platoons and would mess with cap badges but essentially would streamlining skills.  I don't mean separate APC sections/platoons, just maintain the current platoons but slide armoured soldiers into the crew positions.  Then infantrymen wouldn't be bouncing back and forth between dismounted and vehicle crewman throughout his career.  The Combat Arms Branch could essential be split in two MOC's: dismount (infantry) and mounted (armour) allowing for more specialization and streamlined career progression, similar to the how the artillery is one branch/regiment but splits into field and air defence MOCs.
Crew commanding a LAV 3 is a distinct skill set from crew commanding a Coyote.  In a LAV 3, the crew commander is fighting as part of a section, platoon or company.  Or the vehicle is "left behind" and he or she is humping with his or her rifle/carbine.  In a Coyote, the crew commander is part of a recce patrol, troop or squadron, doing recce tasks.  They may be very close in terms of the skill sets; however, I would caution against the notion that they are as easily interchangable.
To illustrate my argument, suppose you did the opposite: you took a crew commander qualified infantry Sgt, and put him in a Coyote.  Yes, he could offer direction to his or her crew as well as any armoured crew commander of similar quality; however, I highly doubt that any infantry Sgt could "slide" into an armoured recce squadron as a crew commander.  It goes both ways.

Having said all that, if the trades were "meshed" into one, then naturally there would be some cross training to be done.  This is well within our means as an army.  I mean, maybe Sgt Bloggins, who until "integration" was an infantry Sgt decided that she wanted to do the "armoured recce" stuff. 
 
Fair enough.  Obviously I don't have the practical experience to know that.  So let me ask you a few questions?  Would career transition from a LAV-III Crew Commander to a Coyote Crew Commander (or visa versa) be easier than from an LAV-III Crew Commander MCpl. to a dismounted section commander Sgt.?  There is going to be a conversion process regardless during career progression.  My point was that from infantry crew commander to recce patrol crew commander would be easier than from dismounted to mounted.  Career progression from a Coyote gunner to a LAV-III crew commander (or visa versa) or a LAV-III driver to a Coyote gunner would be a more logical progression than from dismounted to mounted and back and forth, wouldn't it? 

I know its hard to put the regimental affiliations aside.  I think that is such an obstacle to true combined arms theories.  I would hate to see the loss of the regimental system but for discussion sake I was thinking of truely combined units something like the USMC where everyone belongs to a numbered, non-regimental type unit.  You would have an infantry platoon with dismounted soldiers wearing the crossed rifle cap badge of the infantry and the LAV-III crewman wearing the iron fist cap badge of the armoured corps and nobody wearing a regimental cap badge such as the PPCLI or LdSH(RC).  The battle group mortar platoon/troop might have armoured crewman driving the mortar carriers with gunners in the back manning the mortar.  Similar to how I believe Bison Ambulances are crewed; don't armour/infantry drive the vehicle while medical technicians are in back treating the patients?  You don't need a medic to drive the vehicle.  Likewise, you don't need an infantrymen to drive a LAV-III, let the armoured crewman be the vehicle experts and let the infantry concentrate on dismounted close combat.
 
Mountie said:
...Similar to how I believe Bison Ambulances are crewed; don't armour/infantry drive the vehicle while medical technicians are in back treating the patients?  You don't need a medic to drive the vehicle. 

 
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