The Netherlands raises its terror alert level to "substantial" - BBC

[Yrys]

'Substantial' Dutch terror risk

The Netherlands has raised its terrorism alert level to "substantial", partly due to the expected release of an anti-Islam film.
It is the second-highest alert level, although the justice ministry said "there is no concrete evidence" that the country faced possible attacks.

The move comes as far-right Dutch MP Geert Wilders prepares to air his film, which has already angered Muslims. Mr Wilders has said the film
is about the Koran, but gave few details.

Defiance

He has revealed that his 15-minute film is entitled Fitna, an Arabic word used to describe strife or discord, usually religious. The project has already
been condemned by several Muslim countries, including Iran and Pakistan. The lawmaker has said his work will show how the Koran is "an inspiration
for intolerance, murder and terror".

According to a Dutch daily which has seen some of the footage, the film has the Koran opening. Inside the pages of the book are shown images of atrocities
in Muslim countries that the film-maker thinks are inspired by verses of the Koran. Last month, Mr Wilders said he expected that his work would be shown
in the Netherlands in March and also released on the internet. He said he was determined to release the film, despite government warnings that this would
damage Dutch political and economic interests.

Van Gogh murder

In the past, Mr Wilders - who leads the Freedom Party - has called for the Koran to be banned and likened it to Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. He has described
Dutch culture as superior to what he says is a retarded Islamic culture and believes immigrants must assimilate by getting rid of what he calls the intolerant
and fascist parts of the Koran. Mr Wilders has had police protection since Dutch director Theo Van Gogh was killed by a radical Islamist in 2004.

Mr Van Gogh's film Submission included verses from the Koran shown against a naked female body. As well as the killing of Mr Van Gogh, Dutch politicians
are mindful of the widespread protests by Muslims that followed the publication of cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad in newspapers in Denmark and
other European countries in 2006.

He give me doubt about him having read Main Kampf to compare it to the Koran...

Dutch MP warned over Islam film

Right-wing Dutch politician Geert Wilders has been told that he may have to leave the country if he releases his film about Islam, reports say.

Dutch Muslims condemn MP's film

The Dutch Muslim Council has attacked far-right Dutch MP Geert Wilders' politics as "racist and fascist"

 

[Richie]

Regardless of how one feels about Mein Kampf or the Koran, the point here is Free Speech. Geert Wilders may be considered obnoxious by some but he has the right to air his views. If Muslims object, they can produce their own films, right their own editorials; this interchange of ideas, conflict of ideas if you like, is central to the functioning of any Western democracy.

The fact that the Dutch government has had to raise it's terrorism alert level and has had to place Mr. Wilders under protection and has advised him that he may have to leave his own country for his own protection from Muslim extremists makes me wonder who is actually calling the shots in the cultural/political life of the Netherlands. I have actually been wondering this ever since Theo Van Gogh was shot dead in the street by a Muslim who stuck a warning note on a knife and left the knife in Van Gogh's back; Van Gogh was killed for co-producing a film too.

The ridiculous fuss made by Muslims over the Danish cartoons is another attempt at mob intimidation by segments of the Muslim population. I've never liked bullies and these Muslims are looking more and more like bullies with every incident such as this. Mob rule has no place in a civilized society.

"I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."
-attributed to Voltaire

Richie

 

[Corey Darling]

Reminds me of that south park episode. - Cartoon Wars.

 

[Flip]

Takes me back to Infidel by Ayan Hirsi Ali.
The book was an eye opener and I highly recomend it for back ground on all this.

 

[Lumber]

The ridiculous fuss made by Muslims over the Danish cartoons is another attempt at mob intimidation by segments of the Muslim population.

It's not so ridiculous in their eyes:

The Qur'an says that Allah curses the one who harms the Prophet in this world and He connected harm of Himself to harm of the Prophet. There is no dispute that anyone who curses Allah is killed and that his curse demands that he be categorised as an unbeliever. The judgement of the unbeliever is that he is killed.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

 

[tomahawk6]

Sarkozy stated that France would stand with the Netherlands if they are attacked.

 

[Richie]

It's not so ridiculous in their eyes:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

There have been many caricatures of political and religious figures done over the ages, muslims can claim no special status. As an atheist, I couldn't care less about "Allah", "God" or any other invisible friend in the sky that people have invented over the millennia; I do care deeply about Freedom of Speech and the right to say what I want without fear of retribution by crazed fanatics (muslim or otherwise). Freedom of Speech is an absolute.

The quote you gave about the Koran just serves to support Mr. Wilders' assertions regarding that particular book of fiction: "The Qur'an says that Allah curses the one who harms the Prophet in this world and He connected harm of Himself to harm of the Prophet. There is no dispute that anyone who curses Allah is killed and that his curse demands that he be categorised as an unbeliever. The judgement of the unbeliever is that he is killed.".

Richie

 

[Yrys]

Dutch Islam film website 'shut'

A website that a Dutch right-wing politician was planning to use to release a film expected to be fiercely critical of Islam has been suspended.

The US hosting service, Network Solutions, said it was investigating complaints that it may have breached guidelines on hate language. Dutch politician Geert
Wilders says the 15-minute film describes Islam as "the enemy of freedom".

The planned release has sparked angry protests in many Muslim countries. The Dutch government has disassociated itself from Mr Wilders' views, but there
are fears the film will spark protests similar to those that followed the publication in Denmark two years ago of cartoons seen as offensive to Muslims. The film
has already been condemned by several Muslim countries, including Iran and Pakistan. A website that a Dutch right-wing politician was planning to use to
release a film expected to be fiercely critical of Islam has been suspended.

The US hosting service, Network Solutions, said it was investigating complaints that it may have breached guidelines on hate language. Dutch politician Geert Wilders
says the 15-minute film describes Islam as "the enemy of freedom". The planned release has sparked angry protests in many Muslim countries.

The Dutch government has disassociated itself from Mr Wilders' views, but there are fears the film will spark protests similar to those that followed the publication
in Denmark two years ago of cartoons seen as offensive to Muslims. The film has already been condemned by several Muslim countries, including Iran and Pakistan.


Hate messages

Mr Wilders' film is entitled Fitna, an Arabic word used to describe strife or discord, usually religious. Mr Wilders wrote a commentary in a Dutch newspaper on Saturday.
"The film is not so much about Muslims as about the Koran and Islam. The Islamic ideology has as its utmost goal the destruction of what is most dear to us,
our freedom," he wrote in De Volkskrant. "Fitna is the last warning for the West. The fight for freedom has only just begun," he said. He had been using Network
Solutions to promote the film.

But on Sunday, Network Solutions said it had received a number of complaints that were under investigation. It said the site was suspended until it was established
whether the content of the site violated Network Solutions' terms of acceptable use. They include "material that is obscene, defamatory, libellous, unlawful, harassing,
abusive... hate propaganda" and "profane, indecent or otherwise objectionable material of any kind or nature".

Mr Wilders has had police protection since Dutch director Theo van Gogh was killed by a radical Islamist in 2004.

Link

 

[Richie]

One thing I must give muslims credit for is their ability to act as a unit, much like the Borg from Star Trek. When muslims are told by their self-appointed leaders that there is something offensive to their beliefs, they just react automatically without thought, like a mob. This gives them the ability to bully companies like Network Solutions. I sincerely hope that the actions of Network Solutions is not a forerunner of self-censorship in the United States (don't want to offend "muslim sensibilities"!).

I've just written an email to Network Solutions at dmca@networksolutions.com and encourage anyone so inclined to do so as well.

“If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
-George Washington

 

[Yrys]

One thing I must give Muslims credit for is their ability to act as a unit, much like the Borg from Star Trek. When Muslims are told by their self-appointed leaders that there is something offensive to their beliefs, they just react automatically without thought, like a mob.

Then you must know Muslims mostly by MSM . I worked with 2 Muslims once. The lady was heavily into partying, alcohol, and pot.
The man wouldn't touch anything of "altering minds" because of his religion. Neither speaks of prayer. They were far from a unit ...

Aren't all religious leaders self-appointed by that religion (except in China) ?

 

[Adrian_888]

"I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."
-attributed to Voltaire

I really like that quote, what did you mean by attributed to Voltaire? Did he say that? (sorry im a bit english dumb)


About this whole "terror alert" level thing.  Its compleat nonsense if you think about it.  For one, how can you measure something like that... maby fear per cubic meter?  With one level goign to the next when it gets to the size of say... some rulers private swimming pool?  That would be great!
Even if that wasent completely idiotic, just the idea is wrong, its like "here is the level that you should be afraid, and therefore support right wing parties who will increase the defense budget and support wars that make no sense (I am NOT at all talking about Afghanistan, i mean more something like Iraq).
Its important to remember that fear is one of the most dangerous emotions, and has and is being used to control populations.  Terrorist can only be terrorist if people live in fear of them, otherwise they are just insurgents and rebels facing a hopeless unified power.

In my opinion, scales such as this were better left with Smokey the Bear and his fire alert chart.

-Adrian

 

[Richie]

Then you must know Muslims mostly by MSM . I worked with 2 Muslims once. The lady was heavily into partying, alcohol, and pot.
The man wouldn't touch anything of "altering minds" because of his religion. Neither speaks of prayer. They were far from a unit ...

Aren't all religious leaders self-appointed by that religion (except in China) ?

I've worked with muslims as well; at a company in Ottawa as well as here in Toronto. Both companies were pressured by CAIR to set up prayer rooms in which my muslim co-workers would pray, sometimes up to five times a day. They kept to themselves. If anyone referred to a piece of software as "god", as in "This new troubleshooting tool is great, it's god!" then the muslims would just quietly say "no" and remind us of our place.

I'm glad you met a stoned muslim, it gives me hope.  :  But I'm sick to death of muslims organizing en masse to restrict Free Speech. This is just plain wrong. Free Speech is an absolute, without it we lose our heritage and our future.  If muslims can influence what I can see on the Internet, then they are infringing on my rights. I object strongly to this.

Think of that when you think of Geert Wilders, Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, Ayan Hirsi Ali...the list will go on and on as long as we allow our rights to be slowly but surely eroded.

 

[Yrys]

the list will go on and on as long as we allow our rights to be slowly but surely eroded.

YOU allow your coworkers to remind you of your place. Your choice...

Free speech is not an absolute, even in North America, it is restricted (when calling for crime, as an example).

We, as a society, choose what they can restrict. If we don't manifest our opposition, how can we be frustrated,
when our values are not follow ?

 

[Richie]

I really like that quote, what did you mean by attributed to Voltaire? Did he say that? (sorry im a bit english dumb)

It just means that some people are not sure sure that it was Voltaire who said that, but Voltaire is the most commonly accepted source. I like it too. C'etait Voltaire probable qui l'a dit. (Je suis desole, mon francais est pauvre.)

About this whole "terror alert" level thing.  Its compleat nonsense if you think about it.  For one, how can you measure something like that... maby fear per cubic meter?  With one level goign to the next when it gets to the size of say... some rulers private swimming pool?  That would be great!
Even if that wasent completely idiotic, just the idea is wrong, its like "here is the level that you should be afraid, and therefore support right wing parties who will increase the defense budget and support wars that make no sense (I am NOT at all talking about Afghanistan, i mean more something like Iraq).
Its important to remember that fear is one of the most dangerous emotions, and has and is being used to control populations.  Terrorist can only be terrorist if people live in fear of them, otherwise they are just insurgents and rebels facing a hopeless unified power.

In my opinion, scales such as this were better left with Smokey the Bear and his fire alert chart.

-Adrian

Terror alert levels can be used by dishonest politicians, I agree with you. I tend to ignore the current level and just try to be aware of what is happening in the world around me and form my own opinions based on that.

I agree that fear is one of the most dangerous emotions, look what it has done to Network Solutions or in the case of the Danish cartoons. Muslim mobs understand fear and how to use it.
But I don't live in fear of terrorists; I take the subway to work everyday, I fly when I want to and if I die in a terrorist attack, that is that. No, I don't fear terrorists, I look on them with contempt. Je considere des terroristes avec le mepris.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are related, it's the same enemy that the West faces. En Iraq et Afghanistan, c'est le meme ennemi.

Richie

 

[Richie]

YOU allow your coworkers to remind you of your place. Your choice...

Free speech is not an absolute, even in North America, it is restricted (when calling for crime, as an example).

We, as a society, choose what they can restrict. If we don't manifest our opposition, how can we be frustrated,
when our values are not follow ?

I did not allow them to do this, believe me! They understood me better after I explained to them that I am a "freethinker" (apparently a dirty word to them). They brought their religious values to the office and offended my beliefs and the beliefs of others. Religion belongs at home. I made that quite clear to them.

Free Speech is an absolute. I can say whatever I like. If I were stupid enough to make a false 911 call, I would face the consequences of my actions. Human Rights Commissions in Canada are attempting to restrict Free Speech, just ask Ezra Levant. The "Islamic Supreme Council of Canada" (probably some guy working out of his basement) tried to use the Alberta HRC to silence Levant. If the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada didn't like what Levant published, they were free to publish a rebuttal.

Any restrictions on Free Speech should be challenged immediately. It's a slippery slope and we're right on the edge.

Print and be damned,
Richie

 

[George Wallace]

I did not allow them to do this, believe me! They understood me better after I explained to them that I am a "freethinker" (apparently a dirty word to them). They brought their religious values to the office and offended my beliefs and the beliefs of others. Religion belongs at home. I made that quite clear to them.

Free Speech is an absolute. I can say whatever I like. If I were stupid enough to make a false 911 call, I would face the consequences of my actions. Human Rights Commissions in Canada are attempting to restrict Free Speech, just ask Ezra Levant. The "Islamic Supreme Council of Canada" (probably some guy working out of his basement) tried to use the Alberta HRC to silence Levant. If the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada didn't like what Levant published, they were free to publish a rebuttal.

Any restrictions on Free Speech should be challenged immediately. It's a slippery slope and we're right on the edge.

Print and be damned,
Richie

That being said, we will not derail this topic with any more on the Alberta HRC and Ezra Levant as that is already a topic under discussion. 

 

[Richie]

Fair 'nuff. I was just using it to illustrate a point.

It was a good debate though and I enjoyed it! 

 

[midgetcop]

I did not allow them to do this, believe me! They understood me better after I explained to them that I am a "freethinker" (apparently a dirty word to them). They brought their religious values to the office and offended my beliefs and the beliefs of others. Religion belongs at home. I made that quite clear to them.

Keep in mind that they are allowed to express their displeasure at your "god" remarks, just as you feel it is your right to express your displeasure at their displeasure. Er....I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this... 

NOW, if your workplace implemented a policy which prohibited you from making said "god" comments so as not to offend your Muslim co-workers, I could see *that* as problematic.

 

[Shadowolf]

First they went for Israel, and I said 'Its a middle east issue'.  Then they stabbed Van Gogh and I said 'He provoked them'.  Now they are coming for me......

Seriously, the biggest issue I have with Islam is its intolerance to free thought, free speech.  As I understand the Koran, it banned pictures of Allah as it doesn't want anything caricature to become an item of worship.  I do not believe that dutch cartoons fall under this issue, and people not of the Islamic faith are not in danger of worshiping pictures of Allah.  It is just another case of someone in a position of power rabblerousing the sheeple into a state of fear/anger, therefore giving themselves more power.  This is something political figures have done since the beginning of time.  Educating the masses into being able to think freely for themselves is the only real way to combat these issues.   


Edit:  Speeling

 

[Celticgirl]

I agree with the right to free speech. However, I had a problem with this:

Mr Van Gogh's film Submission included verses from the Koran shown against a naked female body.

This is more than exercising the right to free speech; it is an attempt to provoke and incite rage from the world's Muslims. It's hate mongering, and I feel it is wrong. Mr. Van Gogh simply went too far. He should not have been killed for it, but certainly he should have been told by someone with some sense that this is a provocation and he should make some amendments.

People need to remember that even here in Canada, freedom of speech has its limits. You cannot, for example, threaten to kill your neighbour. We have to respect the rights of others. We should not incite hatred with our 'free speech' or instill fear in individuals or groups. We should treat others with the same respect that we would like to receive (a.k.a. "the golden rule").

As for the Danish cartoon, my Turkish students were in a rage over it. My Saudi students barely flinched. So it could be said that some Muslims had a problem with it, but not all. The ones who did have a problem...well, I'm not Muslim myself, but I kind of see their point. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't have run, and I am glad I was not the editor of that publication because that would not be an easy decision to make (and ultimately "free speech" would likely reign in any case). I'm just saying that I can see what the fuss was all about.