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The Khadr Thread

The fact remains that the Supreme Court declined to void his convictions, and he served time in a Canadian prison. In their multiple opportunities, they only stated CSIS violated his right to have counsel present while questioning him, and that info should not have been turned over to the US authorities not that any of the charges were not transferable to Canadian law. Legally, he is a convicted murderer and terrorist.

Little bit of facts on his actual charges: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/25/khadr.plea/
 
Khadr was an enemy combatant fighting against the country of his birth and it's allies.  I really don't give a **** about his age at the time.  That he's been given $10 million while those who served Canada are struggling with their injuries or are dead  is obscene.  I hope Khadr chokes on his ill gotten money.  If he wants me to acknowledge  him as a Canadian citizen, he can start by atoning and donating the money to his victims and their families.  Otherwise he remains a lying jihadi who has no place in civilized society.
 
[quote author=PuckChaser]

Just want to remind everyone to keep the posts away from personal comments directed at a poster. Its a highly charged topic, but can be debated by attacking issues and statements, not the person.
[/quote]

+100
:D

Also, Roger Wilco.
 
E. B. Korcz Forrester said:

Highly offensive, unsavory and respect-vitiating.

-100.
Not meant as a personal attack but genuine opinion however it's not the time or place as indicated by the wise moderators so I apologize for the sidetrack.
 
Kat Stevens said:
I already stated that I was coming from a place of emotion, accept that as a given, councillor. What do you suppose that poor presumably completely innocent "child" was doing on a battlefield? A 15 year old is a willful creature, you can't "make" them do anything, and is far from a child. You're convinced, and you won't convince me, further rebuttal is futil.


Unless I am mistaken, he was inside a compound that was his family's residence. I don't mean to sound condescending, and I figure you know this, but it's not unusual for an occupying military to encounter civilians in the occupied zone. I suggest to you that, for all we know (again, there is no accurate account that wasn't the product of coercion), certain persons, which probably included family, in the same compound were unlawful enemy combatants staging an attack against the occupying U.S. military, but that Khadr was there not for that purpose but because it was the family residence and he was caught in the "cross-fire," so to speak. If that was the case, that doesn't make Khadr an unlawful enemy-combatant.

PuckChaser said:
The fact remains that the Supreme Court declined to void his convictions, and he served time in a Canadian prison. In their multiple opportunities, they only stated CSIS violated his right to have counsel present while questioning him, and that info should not have been turned over to the US authorities not that any of the charges were not transferable to Canadian law. Legally, he is a convicted murderer and terrorist.

Little bit of facts on his actual charges: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/25/khadr.plea/


Those statement of facts are from the U.S. military commission; in other words, they predicated on coerced confession and, thus, they are not a reliable account of the facts. That SCC said as much about the signed confession in its 2010 ruling.

As for not setting aside the conviction, I have not looked into explanations for that; I have not pored over all the proceedings and the documents from them. I am familiar with foreign judgment recognition for civil proceedings concluded abroad, but I have never heard of setting aside a conviction secured in a foreign court. Perhaps FJAG can enlighten me? I very much value his insight.
 
The confession didn't matter, coerced or not. He pled guilty. He had to read an agreed statement of facts in court as part of his guilty plea stating exactly what he did. His guilty plea wasn't coerced, he had to do that all on his own in court. He's a convicted murderer and terrorist, that's a fact.

Your issue with how the US handled its detainees has no bearing here. Canada screwed up and shouldn't have even questioned him. We should have provided him consular services like any other Canadian charged in a foreign country, and let it be. We weren't getting him out of there, regardless of conditions, unless the US wanted him out. Have we now set the precedent that any Canadian questioned without counsel is now due $10.5M CAD? Joe from Lethbridge questioned without a lawyer present for an assault charge isn't going to get him anything other than his case thrown out, and that guy likely wouldn't have a free lawyer. Or is Joe from Lethbridge not entitled to the same compensation for his rights violation as a terrorist?
 
E. B. Korcz Forrester said:
Unless I am mistaken, he was inside a compound that was his family's residence. It's not unusual for an occupying military to encounter civilians in the occupied zone. I suggest to you that, for all we know (again, there is no accurate account that wasn't the product of coercion), the certain persons, which included family, in the same compound were unlawful enemy combatants staging an attack against the occupying military, but that Khadr was there because it is the family residence and he was caught in the "cross-fire," so to speak. If that was the case, that doesn't make Khadr an unlawful enemy-combatant.


Those statement of facts are from the U.S. military commission; in other words, they predicated on coerced confession and, thus, they are not a reliable account of the facts. That SCC said as much about the signed confession in its 2010 ruling.

As for not voiding the conviction, I have not looked into explanations for that; I have not pored over all of the proceedings and the documents from them. I am familiar with foreign judgment recognition for civil proceedings concluded abroad, but I have never heard of setting aside a conviction secured in a foreign court. Perhaps FJAG can enlighten me? I very much value his insight.

Oy.  He was charged with 5 terrorism related crimes; murder was only one of those.  One also does not need to personally throw the grenade to be party to the crime or convicted of it.

So, just in case he can't remember making IEDs with a big smile on his face (like he now "forgets" throwing the grenade), an act of terrorism I'll add.  And, one of those crimes for which he was also charged, pled guilty to and which was also NOT vacated by the Supreme Court, and just in case anyone would want to try to argue that he just happened to be in the compound because his family was there ...

Here's the video link to him constructing those IEDs in that compound.  Trigger alert for some of our members here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQjYowsBgc

And, I have to say that I'm NOT surprised that the Supreme Court did NOT vacate his convictions for terroristic acts given that, despite "his" memory, video exists of him actually committing some of those acts for which he was convicted pled guilty to.


I am wondering when the families of our actually innocent Canadians who have been held hostage overseas by terrorists are going to sue Canada.  After all, their loved ones certainly had the "right" for their government to do all it could to get them out too ... yet the government refused to pay ransom to get them out because, "We do not negotiate with terrorists -'directly or indirectly' " (PM Trudeau).  I think we do now and I also think that their government certainly could have successfully secured their release had they paid that ransom and, really, who cares how much the cost is when the court has ruled that you must do "all that you can" to secure their release.  I hope they do and I wish them luck. 
 
I liked the part where they used the cattle prod to make him smile while he worked.  Waaaaaiiiit....
 
They don't appear to be IEDs, they are in fact IEDs. I could probably list most of the components, and there are some experienced folks here who could tell you approximate explosive power. They weren't making lawn decorations that's for sure.
 
E. B. Korcz Forrester said:
Much like leaving Canada, in the one scene depicting him making what appear to be IEDs, I don't think he was acting voluntarily.

I'll wait on FJAG's insight about the last post.

What bit are you hung up on?  His age?

He was 15 (UN definition of a child soldier at the time was "under 15") - a couple months away from 16 (world-wise and mature enough to vote sayeth today's governing Liberals).

You do know that we often see serious crimes, uhmmm like murder, terrorist acts etc, bumped up to adult court right here IN Canada too?  "Kids" getting adult sentences??

Reena Virk Murder - Kelly Ellard was 15 when this heinous crime was committed - she's serving life just off the top of my head.
 
I was 15 once, and knew better than to think I could throw a grenade at someone without expecting to be treated like an adult.

An unlawful combatant is essentially anyone who partakes without meeting one of the conditions required to be a lawful combatant.

Governments, including the federal government, are customarily highly effective at deciding what sort of compensation applies for loss of life, loss of a limb, PTSD, etc, etc.  10.5M is way out of any ballpark.  Even wrongful convictions only seem to be worth about 4-6M per 10 years, and Khadr was not wrongfully convicted.
 
ArmyVern said:
What bit are you hung up on?  His age?


Age and lack of proof of voluntariness. His age coupled with the fact that there is no proof that he left Canada voluntarily, nor with the knowledge that he would be instructed to take up distorted jihad once arriving in Afghanistan. He left with his parents who were, by all accounts, extremists and had mala fide intentions, but who had lawful custody (regrettably) over him. I genuinely believe that he was in Afghanistan against his will; and that, whatever he was making in that video, he was probably making it against his will. (He wasn't shown smiling at the starting scenes that depicted him handling what appears to be a component of an IED; the other scenes don't show him handling IEDs or their components).

God only knows how his extremist father, or the other adult males there, would have reacted had he defied them and refused their instructions. He was under mental duress. Those reservations about voluntariness are no "bits," my friend.

Irrelevant analogy. I don't think it was possible for Ms. Ellard to be under duress in her starkly different circumstances.


Brad Sallows said:

I was 15 once, and knew better than to think I could throw a grenade at someone without expecting to be treated like an adult.


Personal anecdotes and analogies won't work here. Khadr's circumstances at 15 and your circumstances at that age were worlds apart.
 
E. B. Korcz Forrester said:
You don't care when the consequences don't immediately affect you, perhaps. But others care, and the observance of 'legalities' is necessary in an orderly and just society--one for which many have fought and scarified to preserve; and why we don poppies on our chests, erect memorials and adorn them with wreaths.

It's dismaying that such statement as that one you just made appeared here.

Some, lots, of the *we* on this forum have served overseas, and in the face of the enemy, been at ramp ceremonies.  According to your profile, you haven't even been sworn in yet.

My advice to you is gear back the preachy-preach shit;  you're talking to some of the people who've protected your freedom while you were still shitting in pull-ups and you've yet to repay the deed, to those that have already, or Queen and country.

You've been given information to consider, yet constantly bat it away.  He did, he didn't voluntarily leave Canada...you know what?  Who gives a fuck?  Watch the video posted by ArmyVern.  Watch it again..that is your victim involved with IED manufacturing.

Then, take a look at the picture I am attaching of your, supposed, victim.  Yes, he looks distressed and fearful doesn't he?    ::)

 

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There's a lot of I believe in your last post, after you derided people earlier for lack of facts. What you're doing is providing circumstantial evidence to try to create reasonable doubt, to counter all the facts put forth by everyone else. Unless you have proof that he was essentially kidnapped and made a slave, you'd be well served to stick in the realm of reality. Did Khadr even try to blame his father for his crimes? Any of the articles I've read didn't have him using that defense.
 
PuckChaser said:
There's a lot of I believe in your last post, after you derided people earlier for lack of facts. What you're doing is providing circumstantial evidence to try to create reasonable doubt, to counter all the facts put forth by everyone else. Unless you have proof that he was essentially kidnapped and made a slave, you'd be well served to stick in the realm of reality. Did Khadr even try to blame his father for his crimes? Any of the articles I've read didn't have him using that defense.


Here and in the U.S., the presumption of innocence places the burden of proof on accusers. U.S. prosecutors were required to show, without coercion and unlawful "enhanced interrogation techniques," that he had knowledge. (Yes, Canada has reverse-onus for affirmative defenses, but not in the U.S. and prosecution occurred in the U.S.)

I can't tell you why his attorneys chose the route that they took; I can't tap into their minds and I'm not prepared to be a CNN-style pundit to comment on that. Also, again, I haven't pored over the copious amount of paperwork——most of which is under seal, and others which are behind a pay wall——from all the proceedings.

The difference between my last post and the ones I derided is that I never claimed or gave the impression that I've given an accurate account of the facts; I made it clear that it was belief——particularly where I wrote "I suggest to you"——and that I was making some conjectures. The post I derided was one that flatly branded him a traitor, and another that asked me a loaded question, essentially requiring me to accept the presumption that he was a "traitor" without an accurate account of the facts.
 
E. B. Korcz Forrester said:
Unless I am mistaken, he was inside a compound that was his family's residence. I don't mean to sound condescending, and I figure you know this, but it's not unusual for an occupying military to encounter civilians in the occupied zone. I suggest to you that, for all we know (again, there is no accurate account that wasn't the product of coercion), the certain persons, which included family, in the same compound were unlawful enemy combatants staging an attack against the occupying military, but that Khadr was there because it is the family residence and he was caught in the "cross-fire," so to speak. If that was the case, that doesn't make Khadr an unlawful enemy-combatant.


Those statement of facts are from the U.S. military commission; in other words, they predicated on coerced confession and, thus, they are not a reliable account of the facts. That SCC said as much about the signed confession in its 2010 ruling.

As for not voiding the conviction, I have not looked into explanations for that; I have not pored over all of the proceedings and the documents from them. I am familiar with foreign judgment recognition for civil proceedings concluded abroad, but I have never heard of setting aside a conviction secured in a foreign court. Perhaps FJAG can enlighten me? I very much value his insight.

Okay but bear in mind I've been out of this business for eight years now.

There are laws in each Canadian jurisdiction for the reciprocal enforcement of civil (and to an extent Maritime) judgments. They details vary by province (and applies to many but not all US states) but essentially there are procedures whereby the foreign judgment can be brought before a local court where there are some limited rights to challenge the judgement. Once accepted by the local court the foreign judgement becomes the same as any local judgement for enforcement purposes.

There is also  Hague convention that applies to family law cases as between a Canadian case and a foreign country case.

Criminal law is another matter.

We subscribe to various processes whereby extradition of a person charged with a crime to or from Canada can take place. Within Canada that is governed by the Extradition Act.

In addition the International Transfer of Offenders Act implements treaties that we have between various countries to allow convicted offenders to serve out their sentence in their home country. This would be how Khadr came here.

There are no laws that I'm aware of that allows any one country to alter a foreign courts findings. Each jurisdiction, be it a province or state or national court has it's own appeal processes which allow a higher level court to review a lower level trial or appeal courts finding based on the legal principles that apply (those processes and principles vary between jurisdictions).

To put it bluntly, Khadr was convicted before a Military Commission based on his guilty plea and an accompanying Stipulation of Fact which Khadr signed indicating that he knowingly and voluntarily admitted was true. The only way that can be altered is by the appropriate appeal processes within the United States (ultimately before the USSC)

What the Canadian courts could and did do was consider the fact that Khadr could and should serve a youth sentence because at the time he committed the offences he was a youth. The Military Commission did not have a mandate to make any distinction between a youth and an adult but the Alberta Court of Appeal (confirmed by the SCC) held that he was entitled to serve his imprisonment in a provincial jail where interim judicial release was easier to obtain. (In Canada a youthful offender is evaluated prior to trial as to whether he should be tried as a youth or as an adult.)

In 2015 Khadr brought an application for interim judicial release (ie bail) pending his appeal of his conviction before the US Court of Military Commission Review. The court granted his application and he was released on conditions:

Queen's bench decision here: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2015/2015abqb261/2015abqb261.html?resultIndex=1

Alberta Court of Appeal decision here: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2015/2015abca159/2015abca159.html?resultIndex=1

The Conservative government brought an appeal to the SCC to revoke bail but after the election the Liberal government pulled the appeal. I have no idea when the US CMCR will take place.

In summary, no Canadian court has the power to overturn the US MC decision and has not done so. At best they have evaluated that Khadr's appeal before the US CMCR is not frivolous. This is a low level test and in no way suggests that Khadr is innocent of the charges but merely says the court accepts that he has something arguable without evaluating how certain or uncertain the outcome will be.

Let me add a separate note here. You've been arguing forcefully that Khadr was a young child at the time without any will of his own and there is no proof that he did any of the things that he was found guilty of except by way of coerced evidence and that therefore he is deserving of both an apology and a large payout. To put it politely, most of the people on this thread differ completely with your opinion and are not about to have their minds changed by you.

While I'm not so naive as to think that there aren't some accused out there who plead guilty when they feel that they are not guilty (often because they think they have a technical defence and not because they are lily-white innocents) in order to make a deal with an overworked court system, I personally don't see that here. As I posted before, he "Knowingly and voluntarily" signed a Stipulation of Fact (see here: http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2010/10/26/10/stip.source.prod_affiliate.56.pdf)when he had a herd of lawyers advising him and when he was no longer being subjected to any of the coercive treatment he received back in 2002-4. For me that seals the issue. To argue that he only admitted to these facts in order to get out of Gitmo and back to Canada is disingenuous at best.

:cheers:
 
E. B. Korcz Forrester said:

Age and lack of proof of voluntariness. His age coupled with the fact that there is no proof that he left Canada voluntarily, nor with the knowledge that he would be instructed to take up distorted jihad once arriving in Afghanistan. He left with his parents who were, by all accounts, extremists and had mala fide intentions, but who had lawful custody (regrettably) over him. I genuinely believe that he was in Afghanistan against his will; and that, whatever he was making in that video, he was probably making it against his will. (He wasn't shown smiling at the starting scenes that depicted him handling what appears to be a component of an IED; the other scenes don't show him handling IEDs or their components).

God only knows how his extremist father, or the other adult males there, would have reacted had he defied them and refused their instructions. He was under mental duress. Those reservations about voluntariness are no "bits," my friend.

Irrelevant analogy. I don't think it was possible for Ms. Ellard to be under duress in her starkly different circumstances.




Personal anecdotes and analogies won't work here. Khadr's circumstances at 15 and your circumstances at that age were worlds apart.
"whatever he was making" is an IED . You don't have the experience or the knowledge to know that  but I do and so do others on here. And bomb making isn't something one does under duress. It is a good way for everyone to end up dead. While I am fortunate enough not to personally know anyone who died as a result of an IED, I do know several people who were injured because of them. Many of them will carry scars (both external and internal) that exceed Khadr's.

Max payout for an injured vet is 360,000 or a little more than 3% of what Khadr got. That is injustice.
 
FJAG said:
To put it bluntly, Khadr was convicted before a Military Commission based on his guilty plea and an accompanying Stipulation of Fact which Khadr signed indicating that he knowingly and voluntarily admitted was true.

Short version: he's a self admitted traitor.
 
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