The Khadr Thread

[Lex Justitia]

Troll no, recruiter yes.

Highly offensive, unsavory and respect-vitiating.

-100.

Really?  Really?  Don't pay much attention to history do you?  There have been plenty on all sides of conflicts.  Anyways,  carry on with your Khadr pity party, I won't be joining you in the celebrations.

My friend, it's not about pity. It's about your Charter entitlements, my Charter entitlements, and Khadr's Charter entitlements. He had jus soli citizenship and remained with it during his mistreatment.

 

[PuckChaser]

Highly offensive, unsavory and respect-vitiating.

-100.

You can't just say "-100" and the milpoints disappear. You have to actually rate the post using the link just under the member's name in the post you want to rate.

Just want to remind everyone to keep the posts away from personal comments directed at a poster. Its a highly charged topic, but can be debated by attacking issues and statements, not the person.

 

[Lex Justitia]

  I don't care about the legalities, quite honestly.

You don't care when the consequences don't immediately affect you, perhaps. But others care, and the observance of 'legalities' is necessary in an orderly and just society--one for which many have fought and scarified to preserve; and why we don poppies on our chests, erect memorials and adorn them with wreaths.

It's dismaying that such statement as that one you just made appeared here.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Line crossed. Don't you dare to presume to lecture me about uniforms, poppies, and sacrifice. I lived it for 23 years, and while I was never in Afghanistan, lots of my friends drew their last breaths there.  I wonder how many of those IEDs had Omar's fingerprints on them. Dismissed.


To add. Legalities and justice never have had much to do with each other. This one is no different.

 

[Lex Justitia]

Line crossed. Don't you dare to presume to lecture me about uniforms, poppies, and sacrifice. I lived it for 23 years, and while I was never in Afghanistan, lots of my friends drew their last breaths there.  I wonder how many of those IEDs had Omar's fingerprints on them. Dismissed.


To add. Legalities and justice never have had much to do with each other. This one is no different.

I apologize if I crossed your line, but sometimes people need reminders of what underlies the sacrifice. It's surely not disorder and lawlessness.

The remark tying Khadr to IEDs is purely conjecture.

 

[Kat Stevens]

That's what "I wonder" means.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I've clearly painted myself as a knuckle dragging barbarian in this thread. And you know what? If that's your opinion then have at er. I freely admit that my lizard brain is in full control on this topic, and hats off to those of you who's Spock brain is driving your thought processes. I've said my piece, and won't say any more.

 

[jollyjacktar]

My friend, it's not about pity. It's about your Charter entitlements, my Charter entitlements, and Khadr's Charter entitlements. He had jus soli citizenship and remained with it during his mistreatment.

I am not the least bit worried about my rights and freedoms as I'm not a traitor who'll take up arms against my countrymen.  Unlike, poor Omar and Co.  And as I said, were I to do so, then as far as I am concerned,  I forfeit said rights by virtue of my actions.  Regardless of what 12 stuffed shirts think and spout on Wellington St about (not so) poor (now) Omar and how beastly the big bad Americans treated him while he visited Cuba, I don't agree and that is my right to do so (not that it changes SFA). As a fellow citizen, he is, dead to me.  I don't consider him or his family to be one of us and never will, they're a self identified AQ family. They can suck it for all I care.

 

[Loachman]

I apologize if I crossed your line, but sometimes people need reminders of what underlies the sacrifice. It's surely not disorder and lawlessness

You crossed my line, too.

You are awfully presumptuous for one so young and inexperienced.

Few people here need a lecture from you about sacrifice. You are not qualified.

In saner times, Omar's reward would have been rope not gold.

 

[OldSolduer]

You crossed my line, too.

You are awfully presumptuous for one so young and inexperienced.

Few people here need a lecture from you about sacrifice. You are not qualified.

In saner times, Omar's reward would have been rope not gold.

I heartily agree for 158 reasons and one of them is quite personal.

 

[jollyjacktar]

158+ too many reasons.  In saner times, Omar and buddies would have been mopped up properly after being overrun and this thread wouldn't be a talking point.

 

[Lex Justitia]

You crossed my line, too.

You are awfully presumptuous for one so young and inexperienced.

Few people here need a lecture from you about sacrifice. You are not qualified.

In saner times, Omar's reward would have been rope not gold.

I would appreciate if the merits of what I say are assessed without looking at my age.

Any volunteers to, instead of digressing into a discussion of age, refute the contention that our wars were not fought for disorder and lawlessness? If not, then I am left to assume that you all concede that they were fought for a society of laws and of order, that which is fair and democratic; and if that's the case, politicizing this redress for serious breaches of the Charter should be unthinkable.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I know I said I'm out, but this is like the Mob, you think you're out, but they pull you back.  Are you honestly equating disgust at rewarding a traitor, regardless of how he got this way, to lawlessness and disorder? That's a stretch you'd have to be Reid Richards to make. This is an injustice, that is all it is, just like a pile of unjust laws still on the books.

 

[Loachman]

Alright. Fine. Regardless of age, you still lack the experience to lecture us about sacrifice and what underlies it.

Our wars have been fought to eliminate or contain threats to our society, with the side aim of freeing or protecting others.

The Khadrs amply proved themselves to be a threat. I have no assurance that he is no longer a threat. The only Khadr currently guaranteed to not be a threat is daddy K.

On top of that, the amount slipped to him while nobody was looking was obscene.

 

[OldSolduer]

I can tell you about sacrifices. Loachman can back me on this as can a few others.

RIP Mike

 

[Lex Justitia]

I know I said I'm out, but this is like the Mob, you think you're out, but they pull you back.  Are you honestly equating disgust at rewarding a traitor, regardless of how he got this way, to lawlessness and disorder? That's a stretch you'd have to be Reid Richards to make. This is an injustice, that is all it is, just like a pile of unjust laws still on the books.

I take issue with branding him a "traitor" because you, nor I, have all the facts; nor is there really an accurate account of the events that day. Mr. Layne Morris recanted much of what he initially said in the immediate aftermath.

As for leaving Canada, not one person has demonstrated to me that 15-year-old Khadr left voluntarily (on the other hand, there is ample account that he left with adults who had custody, unfortunately, over him). Not one person has demonstrated to me that he left with the knowledge that he or others would take up armed combat/distorted jihad, nor with the intention of doing so. Not one person has demonstrated to me carried or threw a grenade (N.B.: Mr. Layne Morris recanted his earlier claim that Khadr was holding and threw a grenade). Not one person has demonstrated to me that he made the free choice—free of mental or physical coercion—to agree with the U.S. Army's account of the facts.

Until someone demonstrates those things to me, I decline to label him a "traitor;" I cannot answer your question because it is loaded—a fallacy. That is, if I answered it, I would have to agree with the presumption that he is a "traitor." That, I cannot do.

Facts are everything. Without them we have nothing; and we are left at the mercy of our emotions.


@Hamish Seggie: I am sorry to hear of your loss. (Unfortunately, I still refuse to politicize Khadr's ordeal, which, again, was the result of the collective failure of many governments)

 

[NavyShooter]

You crossed my line, too.

You are awfully presumptuous for one so young and inexperienced.

Few people here need a lecture from you about sacrifice. You are not qualified.

In saner times, Omar's reward would have been rope not gold.

Can we nominate Omar for the Louis Riel Challenge?

As for this fine Mr. Forrester who's contributing so much that exhibits his complete lack of understanding of our point of view, let me suggest that we try to see things from his for a moment....ok, that didn't work for me either....

 

[OldSolduer]

Despite your fancy words, he's a traitor. Let's not mince words - we will disagree on this.

 

[George Wallace]

I would appreciate if the merits of what I say are assessed without looking at my age.

Any volunteers to, instead of digressing into a discussion of age, refute the contention that our wars were not fought for disorder and lawlessness? If not, then I am left to assume that you all concede that they were fought for a society of laws and of order, that which is fair and democratic; and if that's the case, politicizing this redress for serious breaches of the Charter should be unthinkable.

Paaaaleeeeese!  The Charter is here to protect us.  Unfortunately, the Charter can also be used to the advantage of an unscrupulous enemy of our society.  By protecting all, we sometimes protect an malevolent person and the result is more hurt to their victims.  The unscrupulous will use the Law to their advantage whenever they have the chance.  Although we have a great Legal System and the Charter, they can be tools that can be used against us, and they have been manipulated in the past.

I personally have yet to brand him a traitor.....He is, however, an "Unlawful enemy combatant" and has yet to prove that he is not.  This is something that time will only tell.

You may want to start paying attention to what "Sheepdogs" do in protecting the "Sheeple".  It is yet to be seen if there is still evil in the heart of Omar or not.  The "Sheepdogs" are naturally skeptical of wolves in sheeps clothing.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I already stated that I was coming from a place of emotion, accept that as a given, councillor. What do you suppose that poor presumably completely innocent "child" was doing on a battlefield? A 15 year old is a willful creature, you can't "make" them do anything, and is far from a child. You're convinced, and you won't convince me, further rebuttal is futile.