• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The Khadr Thread

FJAG said:
Okay but bear in mind I've been out of this business for eight years now.

There are laws in each Canadian jurisdiction for the reciprocal enforcement of civil (and to an extent Maritime) judgments. They details vary by province (and applies to many but not all US states) but essentially there are procedures whereby the foreign judgment can be brought before a local court where there are some limited rights to challenge the judgement. Once accepted by the local court the foreign judgement becomes the same as any local judgement for enforcement purposes.

There is also  Hague convention that applies to family law cases as between a Canadian case and a foreign country case.

Criminal law is another matter.

We subscribe to various processes whereby extradition of a person charged with a crime to or from Canada can take place. Within Canada that is governed by the Extradition Act.

In addition the International Transfer of Offenders Act implements treaties that we have between various countries to allow convicted offenders to serve out their sentence in their home country. This would be how Khadr came here.

There are no laws that I'm aware of that allows any one country to alter a foreign courts findings. Each jurisdiction, be it a province or state or national court has it's own appeal processes which allow a higher level court to review a lower level trial or appeal courts finding based on the legal principles that apply (those processes and principles vary between jurisdictions).

To put it bluntly, Khadr was convicted before a Military Commission based on his guilty plea and an accompanying Stipulation of Fact which Khadr signed indicating that he knowingly and voluntarily admitted was true. The only way that can be altered is by the appropriate appeal processes within the United States (ultimately before the USSC)

What the Canadian courts could and did do was consider the fact that Khadr could and should serve a youth sentence because at the time he committed the offences he was a youth. The Military Commission did not have a mandate to make any distinction between a youth and an adult but the Alberta Court of Appeal (confirmed by the SCC) held that he was entitled to serve his imprisonment in a provincial jail where interim judicial release was easier to obtain. (In Canada a youthful offender is evaluated prior to trial as to whether he should be tried as a youth or as an adult.)

In 2015 Khadr brought an application for interim judicial release (ie bail) pending his appeal of his conviction before the US Court of Military Commission Review. The court granted his application and he was released on conditions:

Queen's bench decision here: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2015/2015abqb261/2015abqb261.html?resultIndex=1

Alberta Court of Appeal decision here: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2015/2015abca159/2015abca159.html?resultIndex=1

The Conservative government brought an appeal to the SCC to revoke bail but after the election the Liberal government pulled the appeal. I have no idea when the US CMCR will take place.

In summary, no Canadian court has the power to overturn the US MC decision and has not done so. At best they have evaluated that Khadr's appeal before the US CMCR is not frivolous. This is a low level test and in no way suggests that Khadr is innocent of the charges but merely says the court accepts that he has something arguable without evaluating how certain or uncertain the outcome will be.

Let me add a separate note here. You've been arguing forcefully that Khadr was a young child at the time without any will of his own and there is no proof that he did any of the things that he was found guilty of except by way of coerced evidence and that therefore he is deserving of both an apology and a large payout. To put it politely, most of the people on this thread differ completely with your opinion and are not about to have their minds changed by you.

While I'm not so naive as to think that there aren't some accused out there who plead guilty when they feel that they are not guilty (often because they think they have a technical defence and not because they are lily-white innocents) in order to make a deal with an overworked court system, I personally don't see that here. As I posted before, he "Knowingly and voluntarily" signed a Stipulation of Fact (see here: http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2010/10/26/10/stip.source.prod_affiliate.56.pdf)when he had a herd of lawyers advising him and when he was no longer being subjected to any of the coercive treatment he received back in 2002-4. For me that seals the issue. To argue that he only admitted to these facts in order to get out of Gitmo and back to Canada is disingenuous at best.

:cheers:


Thank you for that. I would have given more milpoints if 40 wasn't my max.
I will need to read these things in full before I comment on the October 2010 stipulations.

I think that'll be enough from me for today (or maybe for a long time; I don't think I want to oppose prevailing views on these boards after Jarnhamar's very crass and hostile reply earlier. I'd like to thank everyone else for remaining composed)
 
To cool things down,

E. B. Korcz Forrester  has been muted for a time.

You are asked to contribute to the topic without further interference.

**edit: to correct a reference in error. **
 
So since someone decided to drop my name.. in a thread I had barely even been keeping tabs on allegeding I was some troll. I suppose now I need to make my stance known.

First, I have not even really been following this khadr crap because it does not really impact my life.

Second, I do not have the requisite knowledge of the events to have an informed opinion.

But here is my opinion on it. He should not get one red cent, wether he is a traitor or not i dont know i heard something about him having dual citizenship so if he did and he was fighting for one country he had citizenship against an invading force from another country he had citizenship i do not know if that makes him a traitor.

But at the very least, he was old enough to use a weapon, he was in the battle field forum.. so he was an enemy combatant the fact that he was alive after killing one of our own is payment enough. We have starving vets, starving families, a broken mental health system etc and to pay him 10 million or whatever the heck it is because of his feathers getting ruffled actually annoys me. That is money i could personally allocate far better.

But i am woefully ignorant on this subject and i hate talking about things i have no clue on. But linking my name to any and every pro terrorist or pro muslim or muslim apologist who shows up here is a quick way to get under my skin.

I am Abdullah D***** i use my real first name and the first letter of my last name as seen on my passport to post here. You guys can find where i live by reading my posts, i do not hide behind aliases to view any differeing opinions i have. If i have a differing opinion i will use my own name to voice it, because i find it keeps me honest.

I just worked 13hrs today and was hoping to read this post and learn something, but instead here i am ranting like a little child >.<

Abdullah
 
I have to agree at Abdullah's confusion at being dragged into the EB vs the world fest muting here as he hasn't been in this bun fight (that I've noticed).  :dunno:
 
jollyjacktar said:
I have to agree at Abdullah's confusion at being dragged into the EB vs the world fest muting here as he hasn't been in this bun fight (that I've noticed).  :dunno:

I was confused by Abdullah's name drop too and sent a note to the mod last night looking for clarification on what the heck. It confused the hell out of me and I still haven't figured it out.
 
ArmyVern said:
I was confused by Abdullah's name drop too and sent a note to the mod last night looking for clarification on what the heck. It confused the hell out of me and I still haven't figured it out.

Especially as he's not in EB's corner.  :stars:
 
I was driving until 0230 and checked in here around 0300, then spent a fair amount of time trying to see what I was missing - I had at least a dozen windows open for that. We'll get it sorted. I'm back on the road in a little while, and will look in when able, but only on my phone.
 
E. B. Korcz Forrester said:
Unless I am mistaken, he was inside a compound that was his family's residence. I don't mean to sound condescending, and I figure you know this, but it's not unusual for an occupying military to encounter civilians in the occupied zone. I suggest to you that, for all we know (again, there is no accurate account that wasn't the product of coercion), certain persons, which probably included family, in the same compound were unlawful enemy combatants staging an attack against the occupying U.S. military, but that Khadr was there not for that purpose but because it was the family residence and he was caught in the "cross-fire," so to speak. If that was the case, that doesn't make Khadr an unlawful enemy-combatant.

I doubt that the location of where this all took place, other than being in Afghanistan, is of any great importance.  To argue that he should not be charged because he was in a "family" compound is just as poor an argument, when in the Muslim faith the measurement of when one is an adult is when they reach puberty.  As such, he would be regarded as an adult by those in whatever compound he was found in.  To argue that he was a "Child Soldier" has been disproven on several counts; through the beliefs of the Muslim faith, through the UN description of what a "Child Soldier" is and in the Geneva Conventions. 

I think we can dispose of the "Child Soldier" arguments.
 
It seems to me that what E. B. Korcz Forrester seems to missing is that Omar Khadr can both be guilty AND have been treated unconstitutionally.  However, being deemed by the courts as being wronged by the government's (in)actions doesn't undo any guilt that he may have. 

I agree with Forrester that in a order to have a truly just society we need to apply our laws equally to all people...even if at times it feels distasteful due to the fact that the person that was wronged is in fact a bad person.  But I think what offends most people is willingness of his defenders to completely ignore his guilt and focus only the violation of his rights.  The courts have deemed that his rights were violated.  That should not have happened and perhaps there should be consequences for that.  However, I don't think that those consequences should be such that he is in effect rewarded for his guilty acts.  Making him wealthy beyond the dreams of any ordinary Canadian...and in particular those Canadians that have sacrificed their own lives and limbs to defend our country is not an appropriate consequence. 

The whole case has some very tricky issues to reconcile.  Khadr is a Canadian citizen by birth (1986) but only lived here only briefly from 1995 to 1996 with annual visits afterward.  Otherwise he grew up with his extremist family in Pakistan or in bin Laden's compound in Afghanistan.  So on paper he's a Canadian citizen and legally has the rights of such, but what are the practical and reasonable limits of such citizenship?  Should living with and working with people who's avowed goal is the destruction of that very same society put some limits on the benefits you should receive from being a citizen of that country?  I was never a Harper supporter, but I can certainly understand the CPC's reluctance to embrace Omar Khadr as one of our own as if he was an innocent victim of these tragic circumstance.

Khadr's defenders will point out his age..."he was only 15!".  Of course I don't know him, but I'm damned sure that he wasn't brought up with the same sense of right and wrong and attitude toward the liberal West as the average Canadian 15 year old.  And I don't subscribe to the defence that he was "brainwashed" with extremist beliefs.  His attitudes and beliefs were not radically different that a great many other people in the part of the world in which he lived.  Do all the other islamic extremists in the conflict get to fall back on the same defence that they were brainwashed by their parents?  Of course not.  Their beliefs are extreme when compared to the vast majority of Muslims in the world, but in the part of the world he grew up in those beliefs are common in a large portion of the population.  He wasn't brainwashed he was culturally acclimatized. 

 
AbdullahD said:
So since someone decided to drop my name.. in a thread I had barely even been keeping tabs on allegeding I was some troll. I suppose now I need to make my stance known.

For someone barely keeping tabs on this 80 page thread you have impeccable timing to catch your name being dropped my friend.

I suspect you may have been mentioned due to some posting similarities.
 
There are no posting similarities that I can see, and a lot of differences. Unless a split personality is at play, I am confident that the two posters are not the same.
 
I found the "I'm tired I'm going to bed" quite singular (and picular)  to their posts but i can see how a very pro-islam view point might  cause  some to think them one in the same at first glance.
 
The bigger, scarier, and unstated, issue with sentences for terrorists that are perceived to be too lenient is that soldiers will be less likely to take prisoners on the battlefield.

I'm sure that this consideration did not factor into the decision in this particular case.
 
I made an error in comparing the two members and steps have been taken to amend the mistake.
 
daftandbarmy said:
The bigger, scarier, and unstated, issue with sentences for terrorists that are perceived to be too lenient is that soldiers will be less likely to take prisoners on the battlefield.

I don't have an issue with the thought of less terrorists returning to the west to commit further mayhem and get mega bucks from the taxpayers.
 
jollyjacktar said:
I don't have an issue with the thought of less terrorists returning to the west to commit further mayhem and get mega bucks from the taxpayers.

Sgt Blackman may disagree with you, now that he's out of jail:

"Blackman ordered Marine B and C to stop administering first aid to the insurgent and eventually shot the man in the chest with a 9 mm pistol,saying: "Shuffle off this mortal coil, you c8nt. It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."He then added: "I just broke the Geneva Convention."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Helmand_Province_incident
 
I agree once you start FA and or take custody of the pricks, then its LOAC rules and pinkys up.  I was thinking more along the lines of fighting harder to minimize the need to administer FA or deliver survivors to POW cages. 

That being said, what was done to Sgt Blackman was shitty, just like Capt Semrau.  Blackman was far more humane with what he did than they would have been to a RM in their hands.
 
Back
Top