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The Khadr Thread

tomahawk6 said:
Guantanamo exists to house the most dangerous AQ operatives.People who are not even wanted by their own countries for the most part.Many that have been released end up fighting us in Afghanistan once again. Holding them in Afghanistan is a joke because in no time they will escape or simply be released to return to the fight. After Nazi Germany fell our biggest problem was reversing the brain washing caused by Nazi propagandists. I met woman once who had been a squad leader in the Hitler Youth as a kid and she was still a Nazi in heart god rest her soul.The fanaticism caused by the Nazi's,communists and islamists are all similar.Take one big idea and sell it to people who have nothing to lose.They all need a boogy man.The Nazis had the jews.The communists had capitalism.Khadr may realize one day that fighting the west is a suckers bet or he will be on a plane to Yemen or Afghanistan to continue the fight.I am betting he will return to the fight.

On the contrary, hundreds have been released to their home or to other countries. Quite a number were found not to have been enemy combatants- remember the Uighurs who remained in detention after being acquitted only because it was thought that if returned to China they would be tortured? Over 550 detainees have thus far been released; of the 220 or so remaining in custody as of Dec. 2010, 126 have been recommended for release. This hardly sounds like a who's who of global terrorists. Certainly some absolutely were, whereas others were caught up in the variety of questionable practices and sketchy intelligence that ran people afoul of the U.S. detainee situation.

Curious that you'd choose a Nazi allusion, of all things. It's long been said that the pural of 'anecdote' is not 'data', and that instance of which you're aware of a woman who remains an unrepentant Nazi seems overshadowed by the vast majority of the German population who were never trouble again. Likewise many ex communists, or ex whatevers. Some people remain ideologically committed for their lives to violently radical causes. With intervention by external parties, it does not appear that this is the case for the majority.
 
I can argue "ethically correct" in circles with anyone in the classroom or on a bulletin board; there isn't really much ambiguity.

In the real world, though, I am prepared to shred "ethically correct" a little to preserve the basic essence of what we have.  It is irrevocably untrue that by "behaving like them" we become "no better than them".  Climb down in the gutter, fight the necessary fight, climb back out.  It's that easy.

The people in question have sworn to abrogate freedoms somewhat more fundamental than any civil rights brought into being and granted by government.  I find my interest in dancing around the head of pin to serve their interests diminishes with each passing year of this horsesh!t.
 
Brad Sallows said:
I can argue "ethically correct" in circles with anyone in the classroom or on a bulletin board; there isn't really much ambiguity.

In the real world, though, I am prepared to shred "ethically correct" a little to preserve the basic essence of what we have.  It is irrevocably untrue that by "behaving like them" we become "no better than them".  Climb down in the gutter, fight the necessary fight, climb back out.  It's that easy.

The people in question have sworn to abrogate freedoms somewhat more fundamental than any civil rights brought into being and granted by government.  I find my interest in dancing around the head of pin to serve their interests diminishes with each passing year of this horsesh!t.

It's not serving *their* interests. Their interests being served are purely incidental. The interests being served by preserving the rule of law are those of everyone; anyone whoa t any point in time may find themselves run afoul of the state in some form, whether in an illegal manner or not. We cannot predict who will be in power in 10 or 15 or 20 years, and what sorts of laws they may pass.  We can't predict what issues may arise that any one of us here might take exception to in a manner that runs afoul of those laws.

The very purpose of confronting breaches of due process and principle in the most extreme cases are to prevent the incremental creeping of state power through the appeal to exceptionality. Rights, freedoms, principles and liberty are not intended to be defended in depth; you don't trade space for time. Our constitutional structure establishes a strict perimeter within which are our own rights as citizens, and without which is the power of the state. Allowing ourselves to legislate our own freedoms away is bad enough; where there are clear violations of the constitutional system of rights that we as citizens have negotiated as our contract with the state through the constitutional process, things are not right.

It is always wrong to simply ignore such breaches just because we don't like that guy. How many here, for instance, have stood up and vociferously castigated the human rights tribunals, even when the subjects of their impositions on expression were real pieces of work like Marc Lemire? People who we would never shake hands with or invite into our home, yet their rights matter because every time the state fails to uphold them we are *all* at hazard of that creeping authority.

In the case of Khadr, any normalization of the abandonment of due process out of mere expediency is dangerous. There is absolutely nothing the state is achieving that could not be achieved through perfectly legitimate and legal means if the facts of the case justify it. We have an excellent national security system, as does the U.S.. Both states are capable of protecting themselves with resort to powers existent under law and within the bounds of constitutional guarantees of rights. If there is a clear gap there, such as in the al-Awlaki case, the answer is to solve that problem through proper legislative process, not merely ignore the law because it's inconvenient in this instance.
 
Thucydides said:
If T6 is right and he heads back out to Yemen, Afghanistan or some other part of the Islamic crescent, then justice will eventually be served up in the form of a Hellfire missile streaking from the sky or a sniper reaching out and touching him and the rest of his pals.

Let's not get our hopes up.......
 
ModlrMike said:
The reality is that he is a Canadian citizen and has the right to return. However... the courts have the ability to impose severe, even draconian restrictions on him pursuant to his release. Whether they have the guts to do so is another question.
He may techically be a Canadian citizen but that is only because he was BORN here.  I believe he spent less than one year of his life here with the rest being spent in Afghanistan/Pakistan. 
 
jasonf6 said:
He may techically be a Canadian citizen but that is only because he was BORN here.  I believe he spent less than one year of his life here with the rest being spent in Afghanistan/Pakistan.
Until they come up with two-tier Canadian citizenship, that's all you need - and it appears it can only be taken away (I stand to be corrected) if it was granted under false pretenses - LOADS of discussion on that here.
 
jasonf6 said:
He may techically be a Canadian citizen but that is only because he was BORN here.  I believe he spent less than one year of his life here with the rest being spent in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

:facepalm:

So was I. So were a lot of folks I know who have spent a load of time out of the country.

Meh, nevermind...
 
milnews.ca said:
Until they come up with two-tier Canadian citizenship, that's all you need - and it appears it can only be taken away (I stand to be corrected) if it was granted under false pretenses - LOADS of discussion on that here.

And gaining it under false pretenses should be the only way for one to lose Canadian citizenship.  Otherwise, any naturalized Canadian is automatically a second class citizen (because his/her citizenship could be taken away while a natural born Canadian's could not under the same circumstances) and I find that extremely offensive and morally unconscionable.  Citizenship, once gained, should be irrevocable.
 
FlyingDutchman said:
Anyone know where he is being sent, prison wise?  I want to guess the Special Handling Unit.

I would guess he won't be in GP. Nor will he be in any gang range, especially an OMG range. As bad as OMGs are....they are a bit patriotic.

Besides, OMGs are generally the domain of WASPs.
 
Jim Seggie said:
I would guess he won't be in GP. Nor will he be in any gang range, especially an OMG range. As bad as OMGs are....they are a bit patriotic.

Besides, OMGs are generally the domain of WASPs.

Sounds perfect.  I'm sure he would make someone a good wife.
 
It's not being "afoul of laws" that is under discussion.  The brat didn't knock over a 7-11; he took up arms, and common sense and the history of the family tells me he was not "neutral" towards Canada.  I'm not too worried about releasing detained combatants at the end of hostilities except in cases where they've sworn to carry the struggle with religious fanaticism.

Sometimes we do trade rights, freedoms, principles, and liberty for time.  Case in point: strategic bombing campaign against Japan.  Unlawful, inhumane, immoral, by some standards unethical, but effective; not to be repeated unless that particular wheel turns again.  When necessary, we send armed forces abroad and incidentally place in jeopardy the lives of people who are not subject to Canadian law and have not committed any identifiable crime against Canada.  The outer bound of what we may do to one of our own is correspondingly greater.

We are not capable of protecting ourselves to any arbitrary standard within the boundaries of laws.  If we had infinite resources I might agree, but we don't; expediency is preferable to surrender.  The only caveat, which we have shown we can do, is to climb back out of the ditch after we finish.
 
Well I'm sure when he arrives here he'll spend his sentance in some form of segregation, one can only hope he ends up in gen pop.  >:D
 
Brad Sallows said:
We are not capable of protecting ourselves to any arbitrary standard within the boundaries of laws.

Nonsense. It has sufficed in every other instance we've ever faced. Terrorism is not an existential threat to our society; it cannot undo what is Canada; only we can do that.

If we had infinite resources I might agree, but we don't; expediency is preferable to surrender.

Sorry, I didn't realize we were contemplating surrender to fifteen year olds now. I was under the impression that Canada as a nation state and as a set of principles was substantially stronger than a handful of terrorists. It is not 'surrender' to accept that principles as a *strategic* interest will stand in the way of occasional *tactical* victories in the war on terror that take place in the courtroom.

The only caveat, which we have shown we can do, is to climb back out of the ditch after we finish.

And yet we still come out soiled and smelling like s***.
 
Brihard said:
And yet we still come out soiled and smelling like s***.

Well then, we can sit on the high moral ground, get fixed in place and overun by the barbarian hoardes. 
 
jollyjacktar said:
Well then, we can sit on the high moral ground, get fixed in place and overun by the barbarian hoardes.

I'm fairly certain that we are reasonably capable of defending Canada within the law, without having to compromise on our integrity in the process.
 
jollyjacktar said:
Well then, we can sit on the high moral ground, get fixed in place and overun by the barbarian hoardes.

I refuse to lie in bed at night cowering from some fictitious 'hordes' of terrorists. There are no boatloads of al-Qaeda disgorging on the beaches of Nova Scotia; the threat you're trying to describe doesn't exist. We do not face en existential threat from terrorists. Most are too stupid to accomplish anything but a premature violent death. Even those who are proficient can't actually harm our country in a lasting way.
 
Brihard said:
I refuse to lie in bed at night cowering from some fictitious 'hordes' of terrorists. There are no boatloads of al-Qaeda disgorging on the beaches of Nova Scotia; the threat you're trying to describe doesn't exist. We do not face en existential threat from terrorists. Most are too stupid to accomplish anything but a premature violent death. Even those who are proficient can't actually harm our country in a lasting way.

My immediate concern isn't the lasting way. It is more like a few hundred people on a subway or a thousand in a building, in the present. Never say never.



edit for clarity
 
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