The Khadr Thread

[The Bread Guy]

Just after WW2. A Japanese-Canadian left for Japan in 1938, served in the Japanese army, and was apparently a rather brutal guard at internment camps, including being responsible for the deaths of some Canadians taken prisoner at Hong Kong. He was hanged in '47.

Kanao Inouye

That's a bit more apples-to-apples than Riel - good catch!

Meanwhile, here's what Hansard says was said during Question Period (QP) in the HoC yesterday - highlights mine:

Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ):  Mr. Speaker, we know that there were definitely no negotiations about the sentence, but there were certainly negotiations about the plea deal. And if it is true that Canada did not participate and that the Americans spoke on Canada's behalf, that is even more serious.  Diplomatic documents reveal that the government would support the extradition of Omar Khadr after he served one year in Guantanamo. Yet the Minister of Foreign Affairs' press secretary said that the plea deal was between the Americans and Omar Khadr.  Let us get the story straight: will the minister authorize the transfer of Omar Khadr once he has served one year in Guantanamo or not?

Hon. Lawrence Cannon (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, the Government of the United States agreed to send Omar Khadr back to Canada, and we will implement the agreement between Mr. Khadr and the Government of the United States.

Later, in the same session of QP:

Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval—Les Îles, Lib.):  Mr. Speaker, in a diplomatic note sent on October 23, Canada said that it was inclined to favourably consider Omar Khadr's application. The agreement negotiated would never have been possible without that guarantee. That proves that the government and the Minister of Foreign Affairs were involved.  Why is this Conservative government incapable of telling the truth? Why did the minister mislead the media, the House of Commons and, especially, Canadians?

Hon. Lawrence Cannon (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, I repeat that the government did not participate in the negotiations on the sentence, and the prosecutor made that very clear. The American government agreed to allow Omar Khadr to return to Canada. We will do everything we can to ensure that the agreement reached between the American government and Omar Khadr is carried out.

Edited to add ==> Meanwhile, according to an Ipsos-Reid poll (news release and detailed response tables attached):

.... While one half (49%) of Canadians believe that Khadr should serve ‘none’ of his time in Canada, the other half (51%) of Canadians believe he should be able to serve ‘all’ (25%) or at least ‘some’ (26%) of his sentence in Canada.  .... the majority (69%) of Canadians more closely believe that ‘Khadr probably is guilty and this plea bargain is too generous, and that the Canadian government was right not to have offered him any assistance up to this point’ ….

 

[HavokFour]

Lowell's talking about Khadr right now, tune in or listen online.

http://www.cfra.com/listen/listen-CFRA-StW.html

EDIT: He is taking calls now. (613)521-8255

EDIT 2: Apparently I'm not the only one that sent him the info on treason, talking about it now. Score!

EDIT 3: Lines are open again, call now if you haven't been able to get through.

And so begins my own personal "jihad".

 

[The Bread Guy]

Some in Cabinet allegedly not happy with the latest?

There’s an old saying that while the cat’s away the mice will play and that may very well be what happened in the Omar Khadr case.

Conservative cabinet ministers are not happy with the Khadr deal and the reality that he will be returned to Canada next year and free shortly thereafter. On Monday when cabinet gathered to prepare for question period tempers flared.

According to sources at the meeting and those close to cabinet ministers, there was yelling and accusations.

Top Conservatives are also not happy with the way the Khadr deal was handled.

The deal appears to have been sealed while Prime Minister Stephen Harper was travelling in Europe and there is the suggestion that foreign affairs officials used this time to offer and accept more than Harper was willing to. Diplomatic notes were exchanged with the Americans on October 23rd in the middle of Harper’s trip to Switzerland and the Ukraine. The question now is, was Harper fully aware? ....

More from QMI/Sun Media Senior Correspondent on Parliament Hill Brian Lilley in his blog here.  I'd be hugely surprised if the PM, no matter where he was, had no sign-off or input on something this significant (diplomatic notes attached for reference).

 

[Journeyman]

the suggestion that foreign affairs officials used this time to offer and accept more than Harper was willing to

IF true, it's just one more example of DFAIT being a left-leaning institution unto itself.

 

[brihard]

So someone pleading guilty is not certain enough for you?

At this point, in the case of Khadr, no.

False confessions are a very well known phenomenon in criminal investigations; the investigative and interrogative process is extremely adversarial and hostile, and it's not at all unknown for people to break down psychologically and confess to things they didn't do. I can't imagine what eight years in Guantanamo does to someone psychologically. His first confession years ago was shown to be coerced (they threatened to send him to a U.S. jail where he would be raped to death), and I've no faith that this one is any more legit. Note that they also made him confess to killing two Afghan soldiers, something he had not previously been charged with or accused of.

This was a show trial. http://www.nationalpost.com/Stalin+would+have+been+proud/3737862/story.html

Was Khadr an enemy? Yes. Did he have the intent to fight against us? Yes. Did he actually do so? I doubt it. I believe he shit his pants, hid in a corner, got shot up, somehow survived (better for all had he not), and then as the sole survivor got hauled in and a bunch of charges dumped on him so the Americans could have a showpiece.

And at the end of the day, guilty or not, my main objections about the entire Guantanamo system - the gross perversion of justice, the kangaroo court system, the abuse of due process and the abandonment of the rule of law - still compels me to stand on principle in this case. I reject entirely that Canada should go along with that farce in any way shape or form. Doing so only condones the abuses the Americans have conducted. Either someone is a criminal or is a prisoner of war. And this brings me nicely to Kevin's point- I'd be perfectly happy to see Khadr held so long as the conflict in which he was a combatant continues. However it'll be a cold day in hell before the Americans will treat GWOT detainees as prisoners of war, with all the legal protections that entails. If either one of the two legitimate legal statuses - prisoner of war, or criminal suspect - were adhered to properly I'd be satisfied.

Now, a charge of treason would be absolutely appropriate. I'd be curious to see how that would play out under the youth justice system.

 

[dapaterson]

IF true, it's just one more example of DFAIT being a left-leaning institution unto itself.

Or that it does a good job of providing plausible deniability and cover to its political masters.  This will let parts of the party rally their base, all while defusing the situation with the opposition.  It would not be the first time an organization folowed orders, then took the blame for them...

 

[HavokFour]

A woman on the radio brought up a very good point just a second ago.

When he was first captured, the Liberals were in power. They didn't make a peep. If they REALLY wanted him back it would have been done years ago.

This whole thing is purely political, the very same thing that is destroying this country.

Hypocrites.

 

[hold_fast]

Sure is "evil conspiratorial and anti-Harper DFAIT" in here.

It seems like everyone's looking for who to point the finger at - who agreed that Khadr could come back to Canada, who can they complain to (who can they hate). Yet, the fact is that he's a Canadian citizen still. Even under the grounds of treason, you can't have your citizenship revoked. In fact - I'm not sure of any way whatsoever that you can cease to call Khadr a Canadian, but feel free to correct me on that.

Maybe you're upset he's a citizen. I can understand that. Me? I'm upset that Russel Williams is. I'm upset that the two teenagers who raped and murdered another teen here in Victoria, and then took her body in a duffel bag out onto a hiking trail (via public transit, no less) and burned it with gasoline, are Canadian citizens. Pickton, Bernardo and Homolka, Olson, Legere - the list goes on. All of them I wish we could not claim as ours, but they are.

He'll be in a Canadian prison - where we'll foot the bill for the other seven years of his sentence, rather than the US. We should be responsible for our citizens, no matter what they do or where they are when they do it. That way, we can ensure that their rights are being respected - as is proper for all Canadians.

Feel free to argue your desire for the death penalty. Personally, I wish Williams had gotten it.

 

[HavokFour]

It is also proper as Canadians to not throw hand grenades at our Allies, and help an enemy we are currently at war with...

 

[dapaterson]

It is also proper as Canadians to not throw hand grenades at our Allies, and help an enemy we are currently at war with...

It is also proper for our Allies not to routinely and as a matter of policy resort to torture in their interrogations.  And not to kill prisoners with their abuse.

One of Mr Khadr's interrogators, Sgt Joshua Claus, was found guilty of "assault, prisoner maltreatment, and lying to investigators" related to the deaths of two prisoners in custody at Bagram.

He was given immunity by US prosecutors for any actions when interrogating Khadr in exchange for his testimony at Khadr's trial.


In any real judicial proceedings all the evidence against Khadr would have been tossed.

 

[KevinB]

We (being when I was in the CF) used to routinely hand prisoners over to elements of the US Gov knowning fully well that the little enclosure made loud noises sometimes.
  So lets not just point fingers.

Secondly there was eye witness testimony that little Khadr tossed the grenade, then was shot, and patched up.

Me, if I knew he was a Canadian and had been there, I would have whispered go in the light and hummed a tune while he bled out...

 

[dapaterson]

There was also a written record that stated the attacker had been killed that was recanted and re-written months later - that would be your eyewitness who changed his tune.

There is no legally admissible evidence other than a confession obtained under extreme duress (to say the least).  The eyewitness recanted his original statement to implicate Mr Khadr.

And granting an interrogator/torturer immunity from prosecution reeks to high heaven.  I certainly hope that whichever state licensed the military judge calls him to the bar to explain his conduct in this case.  I am not sanguine that any such action will ever occur, though.

 

[Gunner98]

At this point, in the case of Khadr, no.

False confessions are a very well known phenomenon in criminal investigations; the investigative and interrogative process is extremely adversarial and hostile, and it's not at all unknown for people to break down psychologically and confess to things they didn't do. I can't imagine what eight years in Guantanamo does to someone psychologically. His first confession years ago was shown to be coerced (they threatened to send him to a U.S. jail where he would be raped to death), and I've no faith that this one is any more legit. Note that they also made him confess to killing two Afghan soldiers, something he had not previously been charged with or accused of.

This was a show trial. http://www.nationalpost.com/Stalin+would+have+been+proud/3737862/story.html

Was Khadr an enemy? Yes. Did he have the intent to fight against us? Yes. Did he actually do so? I doubt it. I believe he shit his pants, hid in a corner, got shot up, somehow survived (better for all had he not), and then as the sole survivor got hauled in and a bunch of charges dumped on him so the Americans could have a showpiece.

And at the end of the day, guilty or not, my main objections about the entire Guantanamo system - the gross perversion of justice, the kangaroo court system, the abuse of due process and the abandonment of the rule of law - still compels me to stand on principle in this case. I reject entirely that Canada should go along with that farce in any way shape or form. Doing so only condones the abuses the Americans have conducted. Either someone is a criminal or is a prisoner of war. And this brings me nicely to Kevin's point- I'd be perfectly happy to see Khadr held so long as the conflict in which he was a combatant continues. However it'll be a cold day in hell before the Americans will treat GWOT detainees as prisoners of war, with all the legal protections that entails. If either one of the two legitimate legal statuses - prisoner of war, or criminal suspect - were adhered to properly I'd be satisfied.

Now, a charge of treason would be absolutely appropriate. I'd be curious to see how that would play out under the youth justice system.

I don't follow your logic:  his confession is no good... but he is guilty of treason...so we won't execute him...we can hang him?

 

[Container]

This is irrelevant. An argument's cogency has nothing to do with the person espousing it.

Bull it doesnt. How does someone who is so far removed from the actual sacrifice required for the "moral high ground" provide an argument that has any "cogency"? Their word that its the right thing to do is supposed to hold water?

Kid involved as enemy kills medic. Kid gets crappy deal at trial. Moral High Ground argues he should walk free. Kid gets free. Kid kills other not so crappy people. Moral high ground feels good because they arent the ones losing.

The point is- whats "right" isnt so easy when YOU have to do the losing. Something most people who can afford to have such high thoughts aren't required to do. Im not saying that people here dont make sacrifices. Im just surprised is all.

 

[Brutus]

Secondly there was eye witness testimony that little Khadr tossed the grenade, then was shot, and patched up.

Me, if I knew he was a Canadian and had been there, I would have whispered go in the light and hummed a tune while he bled out...

Agree 100%.

If he had died, EVERYONE would be better off. I find it interesting that no one (in the media) is talking about the professionalism of the US troops who saved his life moments after he ended their buddy's life. I am sure there were some very strong temptations to just let him bleed.

 

[OldSolduer]

Agree 100%.

If he had died, EVERYONE would be better off. I find it interesting that no one (in the media) is talking about the professionalism of the US troops who saved his life moments after he ended their buddy's life. I am sure there were some very strong temptations to just let him bleed.

But you wouldn't have left him to bleed out. That is not in your nature. All your training tells you "do the right thing".

 

[Brutus]

But you wouldn't have left him to bleed out. That is not in your nature. All your training tells you "do the right thing".

Agreed, but people ARE human. I'm not advocating for or against watching him die, I'm pointing out the professionalism is assisting him in surviving moments after he killed their buddy. He owes them his life, IMHO.

 

[OldSolduer]

Agreed, but people ARE human. I'm not advocating for or against watching him die, I'm pointing out the professionalism is assisting him in surviving moments after he killed their buddy. He owes them his life, IMHO.

I agree with you. He does owe his life to those he tried to murder. I'm saying that we would probably have done the same.

 

[Brutus]

I agree with you. He does owe his life to those he tried to murder. I'm saying that we would probably have done the same.

I'm sure we would have.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Citation needed.

Undoubtedly there will be one or two individuals who are right (or left?) the f*** out of 'er, but I challenge you to demonstrate any wide sentiment amongst 'the left' (whatever that mythical, monolithic thing you conceive of is) that suggest Khadr should be given a medal and elected or appointed to any position of responsibility.

Sounds like you may have read a very extreme position at some point, and are broadly attributing it to the entire side of the political spectrum you're not a fan of. I'm calling bullshit.

Guilty, I was reading posts over at rabble.ca. I was banned there years ago but now and then I like seeing what those far left retards are spewing- it helps me right before I go to the gym.