The Great Gun Control Debate

[TCBF]

I fail to see how something converted specifically to fire only in semi-automatic is somehow extra dangerous than a firearm that is semi-automatic from the factory. If its illegal to convert to automatic, its illegal. Banning firearms because someone might break the law and change them back with them is asinine.

- Moot point. The issue here is, who pays? did the mfr knowingly use selective-fire receivers to produce a rifle that HAD to be genetically semi-auto by design, IOT pass our idiotic (but legal) requirements?

- Now, watch for those gun store counter sales registry books to take on a whole new meaning, as the Horse Police try to ensure that EVERY rifle gets turned in.

- Activists should write a cheque to the CPC in the ammount of the cost of subject firearm, write VOID on it, mail it in and explain why they now need the 4k.

 

[Loachman]

There are more factors than the gun vote that led to the Conservatives demise in 1993.  The deficit, the recession, the GST, Free trade, the failed constitutional talks (which led to the formation of the Bloc) the Reform Party etc etc.  Gun legislation was a very minor issue in that regard when compared to those factors.

Agreed, generally.

The rise of the Reform Party was not a cause of the PC demise, however. The Reform Party's growth stemmed, instead, from the increasing tendency of the PC party to drive many of its traditional supporters towards Reform. I was one of them. Were it not for a very real sense of betrayal over matters that were important to me at that time, and still are, I'd not have switched my vote and donation patterns. I am sure that I was not the only one within the military/veteran and firearms-owning communities.

Kim's stupid anti-firearms legislation may have been a "very minor issue" overall, but do not discount that camel's back/straw thing. And some "very minor issues" can be anything but minor to those most affected. Such people will work the hardest to correct the issue that affects them. Pure numbers are not the only factor.

The influence of that legislation was not a question in the design of either pre- or post-election polling. Nobody even thought to ask about it, hence the true effect will never be known. But when electoral margins are close, pushing large numbers of people who once belonged to a party, donated to it, and actively campaigned during previous elections is not, perhaps, the smartest move.

If the gun lobby in Canada was as influential as some think, then the CPC would have scrapped the registry a long time ago, but didn't until recently.

It could have done that quite easily, and much, much more. A good deal of that detestable Act is enabling legislation, which gives the government the ability to make significant changes to regulations via Order-in-Council. It chose not to. It chose, rather, to string firearms owners along through several elections. It played us, in order to garner votes. Now, we are taken for granted, and sloughed off. Many of us choose not to be taken for granted.

But, death from a thousand cuts.  I think the CPC will need every single vote, next time round and alienating this group just adds to others, military, vets etc etc.  Makes for a bigger wound in the end.

Yes.

I took a great deal of pleasure in the deserved demise of the PC government, even knowing the pain that would ensue from the election of a Liberal one.

I'll likely do the same this time.

And I will likely contribute to it.

 

[Occam]

The RCMP want them so the Conservatives can shoot themselves in the foot.  What a stupid thing to do in the year leading up to a election.  They are going to bleed votes because of this. Gun owners, vets, soldiers are all but gone from the cause.

...public servants...

 

[2ndChoiceName]

This is such bull****. I'd like to see a single documented case when the Classic Green was used in any sort of commission of a crime with more effective killing power than say an SKS.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

 

While I agree that gun control is an issue for some ridings (I do believe that some MPs careers hang on that balance in some but few ridings) it isn't really a national problem per se.  (until we have another mass shooting then the knee jerk reactions will appear).  I'm sure that for the people of Lanark, this is an issue but for the people of Toronto they don't care as long as there are less guns on their streets. 

Chris Alexander took the Ajax-Pickering riding from Mark Holland. Holland maintained an almost 50% vote from 2004 until 2011, when he fell to Alexander.

Politicians all across the country were affected by the way gun owners voted. You really need to do some research before you make your blanket statements.

Were gun owners the single deciding factor? Of course not. No more than any other single group is, no matter their cause.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

This is such bull****. I'd like to see a single documented case when the Classic Green was used in any sort of commission of a crime with more effective killing power than say an SKS.

I'd be curious to see stats on use of "full automatic" in the committing of any serious crimes recently.  I've seen army people shoot full auto, most times unsuccessfully.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The worst part about this whole thing is we did this to ourselves!  My understanding is that this whole issue began with a feud between two rival gun stores in Calgary.  One of them ended up calling the RCMP who subsequently launched a probe et voila... all Swiss Arms rifles now banned in Canada.

This is why SOME law-abiding gun owners don't trust the police.

Any idea which two shooting stores were involved with this?

 

[Loachman]

I'd be curious to see stats on use of "full automatic" in the committing of any serious crimes recently.

None of which I am aware.

At the time of Trudeau Senior's anti-firearms legislation of 1977, there were approximately 4400 selective- or fully-automatic firearms in civilian hands. None of them have ever been used in crimes.

Interestingly, those that survive (and I have no idea how many that would be, as the number of grandfathered collectors has diminished) today are still classified "restricted".

There is precious little in any progressively-stupider wave of Canadian anti-firearms legislation that makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[kkwd]

Any idea which two shooting stores were involved with this?

Here is a story from 4 weeks ago on that very subject.   Article

 

[Jarnhamar]

I bet that will hurt the ol wallet.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

"Mmmmmm, nope don't have one. Sold it a while ago. To who? I forget the guys name now, but I made sure he had a valid PAL. Think he might have been driving a white pick up truck, if that helps"

 

[Bzzliteyr]

"Mmmmmm, nope don't have one. Sold it a while ago. To who? I forget the guys name now, but I made sure he had a valid PAL. Think he might have been driving a white pick up truck, if that helps"

His name was Mike... he lives in Canmore.  Said he wanted it for boating...

 

[Jarnhamar]

This is where all the destroyed long gun registry information mysteriously pops up right?

Imagine being the RCMP PR guy and opening the email about this

 

[Remius]

Chris Alexander took the Ajax-Pickering riding from Mark Holland. Holland maintained an almost 50% vote from 2004 until 2011, when he fell to Alexander.

Politicians all across the country were affected by the way gun owners voted. You really need to do some research before you make your blanket statements.

Were gun owners the single deciding factor? Of course not. No more than any other single group is, no matter their cause.

Lol. Ok.  I guess the NDP vote nearly doubling there had no impact. Disaffected liberals voting for an alternative is the more likely factor. And even then is was a tight win. But hey we actually agree about the deciding factor thing you mentioned.  Maybe you should take some of your advice before issuing YOUR blanket statements.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Any idea which two shooting stores were involved with this?

My understanding is one of the stores was butthurt that the other store was also selling Swiss Arms rifles that were refurbs (basically cutting into his business).  In an attempt to screw the guy selling refurbs over and ensure the monopoly on Swiss Arms sales was maintained he got a hold of one of the refurbs and found out it wasn't quite the same rifle as the ones he was selling.  He turned it over to the RCMP hoping they would shut buddy down but instead they launched a big probe of the entire rifle and now they are all banned. 

I read this all on CGN so take it for what it's worth.  We only have ourselves to blame for this one boys!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Lol. Ok.  I guess the NDP vote nearly doubling there had no impact. Disaffected liberals voting for an alternative is the more likely factor. And even then is was a tight win. But hey we actually agree about the deciding factor thing you mentioned.  Maybe you should take some of your advice before issuing YOUR blanket statements.

Never said they were a single defining factor, but you have yourself a ball anyway

Shoulda never clicked that "You are ignoring this user" link :facepalm:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I read this all on CGN so take it for what it's worth.  We only have ourselves to blame for this one boys!

"WE" don't have ourselves to blame for anything.

Two pissed off ex business partners are the blame.

The whole thing rests on them and the incompetents at the RCMP Technical Branch.

Oh, and the CPC and Minister of Public Safety, Steve Blaney for letting it happen.

At least, when he held the portfolio of Min PS, Vic Toews made the RCMP pay owners for reclassification confiscations from their own budget.

I don't recall hearing shit from Blaney, on anything, since he took over in July 13

 

[Remius]

Never said they were a single defining factor, but you have yourself a ball anyway

Shoulda never clicked that "You are ignoring this user" link :facepalm:

Yeah I know. And I didn't say you said that.  Will it be like the last time you ignored me or is it for real this time?  Either way Vikings is on tonight.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I'd be curious to see stats on use of "full automatic" in the committing of any serious crimes recently.  I've seen army people shoot full auto, most times unsuccessfully.

According to the latest homicide stats for 2012 there were 543 homicides in Canada of which:

"[h]andguns accounted for the majority (65%) of firearm-related homicides, followed by rifles or
shotguns (24%), sawed-off rifles or shotguns (5%), fully automatic firearms (5%) and other firearm-like
weapons (e.g., nail gun, pellet gun) (1%) (Table 6). As such, the 2012 rate of homicide committed with a
handgun (0.31) was almost triple the rate for a rifle or shotgun (0.11)."

According to my calculations (which could be wrong) that comes out to 8.6 murders involving automatic weapons.

Source:  Homicide in Canada, 2012

Edit: Found out in later table (Table 6) there were 9 murders in 2012 involving full auto firearms.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

According to the latest homicide stats for 2012 there were 543 homicides in Canada of which:

"[h]andguns accounted for the majority (65%) of firearm-related homicides, followed by rifles or
shotguns (24%), sawed-off rifles or shotguns (5%), fully automatic firearms (5%) and other firearm-like
weapons (e.g., nail gun, pellet gun) (1%) (Table 6). As such, the 2012 rate of homicide committed with a
handgun (0.31) was almost triple the rate for a rifle or shotgun (0.11)."

According to my calculations (which could be wrong) that comes out to 8.6 murders involving automatic weapons.

Source:  Homicide in Canada, 2012

Edit: Found out in later table (Table 6) there were 9 murders in 2012 involving full auto firearms.

So now I'd be curious to know if they were used as an automatic weapon OR (in the case of say, a C7) used in single shot but were automatic weapons?