The Great Gun Control Debate

[Fishbone Jones]

So now I'd be curious to know if they were used as an automatic weapon OR (in the case of say, a C7) used in single shot but were automatic weapons?

Won't matter likely. Probably gangbangers with stolen, smuggled guns. Not a true indication of legal firearms and their owners. Just guessing though.

 

[2ndChoiceName]

So now I'd be curious to know if they were used as an automatic weapon OR (in the case of say, a C7) used in single shot but were automatic weapons?

I'd be interested to know how they even classify automatic weapons. With all the misinformation it wouldn't surprise me if firearms like the AR-15 and Classic Green were grouped into automatic weapons.

As an aside, a few years back I was watching a documentary by CBC advocating gun control. To drive home the point that they need more gun control they gave a kid who lived around Jane & Finch a camera and told him to come back the next day with as many pictures of guns as possible. He did so, and as they showed all the pictures, I realized that over half of the firearms shown were already prohibited.

 

[Loachman]

According to my calculations (which could be wrong) that comes out to 8.6 murders involving automatic weapons.

"Homicide" does not necessarily equal "murder".

It would also include, for example, police, in lawful performance of their duty, killing criminals or suspected criminals.

The number does seem a bit high. One would expect major headlines each and every time that an actual automatic weapon was used in a slaying. I do not recall any.

 

[Journeyman]

One would expect major headlines each and every time that an actual automatic weapon was used in a slaying. I do not recall any.

Obviously none were committed by an Afghanistan vet -- or someone who'd done workup training -- the papers would have been all over that.  :nod:

 

[Lightguns]

Obviously none were committed by an Afghanistan vet -- or someone who'd done workup training -- the papers would have been all over that.  :nod:

Canadian Army vets only committ crimes on CTV's "Flashpoint" but only every second episode.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

According to the latest homicide stats for 2012 there were 543 homicides in Canada of which:

"[h]andguns accounted for the majority (65%) of firearm-related homicides, followed by rifles or
shotguns (24%), sawed-off rifles or shotguns (5%), fully automatic firearms (5%) and other firearm-like
weapons (e.g., nail gun, pellet gun) (1%) (Table 6). As such, the 2012 rate of homicide committed with a
handgun (0.31) was almost triple the rate for a rifle or shotgun (0.11)."

According to my calculations (which could be wrong) that comes out to 8.6 murders involving automatic weapons.

Source:  Homicide in Canada, 2012

Edit: Found out in later table (Table 6) there were 9 murders in 2012 involving full auto firearms.

that's awfully high, I suspect it might be incorrect as the terms semi-auto and full automatic are poorly understood by many. the term "machine gun" is used to describe anything remotely military looking. So we would really need to drill down into that data set to see what source material they used to collect weapon data to determine how accurate it was.

I believe this may be the only case in BC and the first in a long time where full automatic firearms were used.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/paralyzed-victim-of-bc-gang-shooting-sues-alleged-gunmen-and-hotel/article13863983/

 

[Journeyman]

I believe this may be the only case in BC and the first in a long time where full automatic firearms were used.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/paralyzed-victim-of-bc-gang-shooting-sues-alleged-gunmen-and-hotel/article13863983/

".....claims in a lawsuit that she wasn’t aware the people she was with had links to crime"

Ah yes, they could have been in the non-criminal side of the Hells Angels.  :facepalm:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

They actually have or had a "corporate arm" to promote their image and deal with issues in more "civil ways". They can drown you in lawyers as easily as they could have "Tony and Fred" visit you. They also had a marketing firm looking after their image for awhile and I think a business interest in Harley. The HA in BC used to be a much more disciplined lot, keeping the messy side of things out of public view, although in the CCG we did call the Fraser River the "Hells Angels retirement home" because of the number of dead biker types we fished out of there, rarely even reported missing. 

 

[Journeyman]

They've always had big marketing drives at the bike rallies (Sturgis, Laconia, etc), where people stock up on their "Support 81 / they're just misuunderstood" fashions to augment their Sons of Anarchy wardrobe.

 

[ballz]

A small piece of hope that they will change the bureaucrats ability to write their own laws...

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Federal+government+review+RCMP+decision+prohibit+Swiss+Arms/9564171/story.html

Federal government to review RCMP decision to prohibit Swiss Arms rifle

OTTAWA - The Harper government, which has championed the rights of gun owners for years, is reviewing a decision by the RCMP to effectively ban a previously legal rifle.

The Mounties recently reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine as a prohibited weapon, essentially banning it.

"I am upset by this unacceptable decision regarding Swiss Arms rifles," Steven Blaney, minister of Public Safety, said in a statement Friday.

"This decision was made by bureaucrats, not elected officials. I have therefore ordered an urgent review of this unfortunate situation."

"All options are on the table to ensure that no firearms owner who acted in good faith suffers any consequence as a result of this situation."

Alberta Tory MP Chris Warkentin raised the issue in question period Friday, saying the rifles had been legally sold for a decade.

He says there have never been any criminal events reported involving the weapon, but it has been banned at the stroke of a pen.

The issue is tricky for the Harper government, which campaigned for years to eliminate the long-gun registry and even went to court to keep Quebec from holding on to existing records from the registry.

The National Firearms Association said in a statement that there are 1,000 to 1,800 of the rifles in Canadian hands.

"The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that the firearms, which cost between $3,000-$4,000 be surrendered," the statement said.

"The government is suggesting that all affected firearms owners contact the distributors from which the firearms were purchased for reimbursement."

The association said the ban is part of a quiet RCMP effort to prohibit firearms in Canada.

"Access-to-information records show that RCMP have an aggressive firearms reclassification agenda and that prohibitions will not stop with the Swiss Arms series rifles," the association said on its website.

Its Facebook page is even more direct with this posting: "Has RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson declared war on law-abiding firearm owners?"

The association said the weapons have been around for years without incident and some of them were even formally listed in the gun registry before the RCMP decided on prohibition.

The RCMP has not given an explanation of its decision.

The gun association calls it an assault on the rights and private property of law-abiding gun owners.

It's urging people to contact the government and write their MPs to get the decision overturned.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

The RCMP have reclassified a very large lot of CZ 858's to Prphib today as well.

 

[larry Strong]

It seems the Fed's are going to review the decision. Posted in accordance with.....

Swiss Arms Classic Green rifle ban to be reviewed by government

The Harper government, which has championed the rights of gun owners for years, is reviewing a decision by the RCMP to effectively ban a previously legal rifle.

The National Firearms Association said the Mounties have reclassified the Swiss Arms Classic Green carbine as a prohibited weapon, essentially banning it.

Alberta Tory MP Chris Warkentin raised the issue in question period Friday, saying the rifles had been legally sold for a decade.

He said there have never been any criminal events reported involving the weapon, yet it has been banned at the stroke of a pen.

MP Roxanne James, who represents the riding of Scarborough Centre and serves as parliamentary secretary to the public safety minister, said the government is troubled by the ruling and will review what she called "an unfortunate decision." She said a number of options are being explored.

The issue is a tricky one for Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government, which campaigned for years to eliminate the long-gun registry and even went to court to keep Quebec from holding on to existing records from the registry.

"We are in fact very troubled by the situation that has arisen from the Swiss Arms rifle," James told the House of Commons. "This decision was made by bureaucrats and not by politicians."

Hundreds of rifles in Canadian hands

The firearms association said in a statement that there are 1,000 to 1,800 of the rifles in Canadian hands.

"The government will not be offering compensation and will be demanding that the firearms, which cost between $3,000-$4,000 be surrendered," the statement said. "The government is suggesting that all affected firearms owners
contact the distributors from which the firearms were purchased for reimbursement."

J.R. Cox, who operates a gun shop called The Shooting Edge in Calgary, owns 10 of the guns and has about 15 for sale in his store. He said the trouble began when modified versions of a similar gun manufactured by Swiss Arms appeared in Canada about eight months ago.

Those guns, he said, were used models that are banned in Canada but were purchased in Switzerland, shipped to Canada and repainted to resemble the Classic Greens.

"What happened is you've got rifles that look identical but are made on different receivers," he said in a phone interview. The receiver is the upper part of the firearm where the bolt goes in.

When one showed up in his shop, he complained to the RCMP. The RCMP began an investigation and concluded the guns may be convertible to automatic weapons, which are illegal is Canada, although Cox said that is not an issue.

He can't understand why the RCMP didn't just ban the modified repainted guns, rather than the whole class of Swiss Arms rifles.

"The RCMP don't like these guns," he said. Asked why, he replied, "Because it's a military-style firearm."

Compensation being studied


James said the issue of compensation is being studied.

"I would like to let all Canadians know that all options are on the table to ensure that no firearms owner who acted in good faith suffers any consequences as a result of this terrible situation," she said.

The firearms association said the ban is part of a quiet RCMP effort to prohibit firearms in Canada.

"Access to information records show that RCMP have an aggressive firearms reclassification agenda and that prohibitions will not stop with the Swiss Arms series rifles," the association said on its website.

Its Facebook page is even more direct with this posting: "Has RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson declared war on law-abiding firearm owners?" The association said the Swiss Arms rifles have been around for years without incident and some of them were even formally listed in the gun registry before the RCMP decided on prohibition. 

The RCMP has not given an explanation for the decision, and did not reply to emails from CBC News requesting a comment.

The gun association calls the gun ban an assault on the rights and private property of law-abiding gun owners. It's urging people to contact the government and write their MPs to get the decision overturned.

Government blames bureaucrats

On the Conservative Party's website Friday, Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney posted a message under the heading "Unacceptable."

Identifying himself as the MP for the Quebec riding of Levis-Bellechasse, and not as a cabinet minister, Blaney wrote: "The actions of these bureaucrats are absolutely unacceptable and I will be announcing concrete measures in the coming days."

He continued, "Our Conservative government is on your side — and we will always stand up for the rights of law-abiding firearms owners."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/swiss-arms-classic-green-rifle-ban-to-be-reviewed-by-government-1.2555746


Larry

 

[chrisf]

It got worse, they banned CZ-858 rifles manufactured after 2007

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=586777211390379&set=a.3473360920011%2060.74391.347295135338589&type=1&theater

 

[putz]

It gets better then that: http://static.globalnews.ca/content/interactives/documents/general_news_bucket/A-2012-00068.PDF  number of different Firearms under review.  Including AR-15 and Clones

 

[The_Falcon]

The power to classify firearms should NOT be in the hands of the RCMP, period.  It should not be through Order in Council either. It should be via an open and transparent process accessible to ALL stake holders, including those who have actually spent the coin to buy the guns.

 

[chrisf]

I don't even understand why that document would be secret and sections censored??? Where's the damage to the national interest?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The Conservatives need to hammer these guys hard for this... hopefully this acts as a unifying force against the RCMP and the bureaucrats responsible for firearms legislation.

 

[x_para76]

After having read all this I'm very hesitant to purchase a civilian version of an AR-15 for competitive shooting. The idea of investing some money in this and then for the RCMP to just arbitrarily decide to reclassify the rifle as prohibited really f$&#'s me off.

 

[chrisf]

I wrote my mp last night (though I don't expect much him bring orange and all, though ironically id say his district has as many guns per capita as most in Alberta) and I joined the nfa and cssa.

Now I have more letters to write.

 

[chrisf]

After having read all this I'm very hesitant to purchase a civilian version of an AR-15 for competitive shooting. The idea of investing some money in this and then for the RCMP to just arbitrarily decide to reclassify the rifle as prohibited really f$&#'s me off.

Get a cheaper one.

Every registered ar15 represents a voter who's going to be quite disappoint if they're banned.