The Great Gun Control Debate

[Lightguns]

Here in NB wardens can search your vehicle with probable cause and provided you are in a hunting situation. They can check your firearm to ensure you are not using an illegal calibre for the license you possess. They cannot enforce any other firearms law as NB did not sign on to the gun control laws of Jean Creeptan. They will call the RCMP on you if you are running around the woods with a 30 rounder! 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act.

The federal government plans to conduct what it calls an in-depth study of the country's civilian firearms industry as part of a program to combat gun crime and weapons smuggling and trafficking.

Public Safety Canada wants up-to-date details on who is making civilian weapons, who's selling them, who's buying, who is exporting and importing and who works in the industry.

It's all part of a inter-departmental program that involves Public Safety, the RCMP, Border Services and the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada.

The government posted a request for proposal for the study on the same day the Supreme Court of Canada agreed to hear a Quebec bid to preserve the last of the federal long-gun registry data.

The Conservative government passed legislation in 2012 to destroy millions of gun registrations — a move that was opposed by police forces who said the information helped combat gun crime, including firearms smuggling and trafficking.

Environment Canada is also seeking bids for another contract worth up to $60,000 to study the use of lead bullets and shot and their impact on the environment and human health.

The Canadian Press, 22 Nov 13

Tender postings mentioned:

• "Characteristics of the Canadian Firearms Industry Supplying the Civilian Market" - Statement of Work viewable here
• "Study on use patterns of lead ammunition from hunting and sport shooting activities and their environmental and health impacts" - study terms of reference viewable here

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hmmm more than one way to kill a sport. "Here is our conclusion, please find support for it".

 

[Lightguns]

Yummy tin bullets!

 

[Lightguns]

I have not been able to find the post but someone asked about natives and PAL course.  Here's the deal.  Natives have a special application to fill out:

http://www.cfa-ltd.ca/files/1016-eng.pdf

They require, the approval of an elder to certify they engage in traditional hunting practices and that there is no course available locally OR that they do not speak either English or French.  All communities North of 60 have a RCMP certified elder who signs off the practical portion of the course for their bands applicants.  No fee is charged for the course, the application or the PAL card.  The native application cannot be used for an RPAL.  All natives holding Prohibited firearms are subject to all rules as like any Canadian.

Edit

Just noticed a funny part in the form.  Under "Complete this form if", one of the ifs is "if you do not speak English or French".

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Environment Canada is also seeking bids for another contract worth up to $60,000 to study the use of lead bullets and shot and their impact on the environment and human health.

Wasn't this decided about 30 or so years ago and if I'm not mistaken the reason shotgun pellets these days are made out of copper vs lead?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Wasn't this decided about 30 or so years ago and if I'm not mistaken the reason shotgun pellets these days are made out of copper vs lead?

I know of copper washed and copper plated lead shot, but never of pure copper shot.

I've even seen old copper cased shotgun shells.

The move back then was to steel shot, and that was for migratory hunting.

The concern was ducks and geese were eating lead from the bottom of the shooting waterways. So they use steel shot.

Lead is still used for small game and upland birds.

...........and home invaders.

 

[CombatDoc]

Lead has been replaced by steel, bismuth and other alloys for water fowling. Copper itself is a toxic metal (which is why hulls of wooden ships were sheeted in Cu below the waterline).

 

[Furniture]

I know of copper washed and copper plated lead shot, but never of pure copper shot.

I've even seen old copper cased shotgun shells.

The move back then was to steel shot, and that was for migratory hunting.

The concern was ducks and geese were eating lead from the bottom of the shooting waterways. So they use steel shot.

Lead is still used for small game and upland birds.

...........and home invaders.

Barnes TSX bullets are all copper. I have a bunch of Sellier and Bellot 6.8SPC rounds in 110g Barnes TSX

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Barnes TSX bullets are all copper. I have a bunch of Sellier and Bellot 6.8SPC rounds in 110g Barnes TSX

Most bullets in general use are copper jacket. We know this.

We're talking about shotgun pellets here though.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The latest on the High River issue, shared here in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act ....

The National Firearms Association is calling for a high-calibre judicial inquiry into RCMP actions during summer flooding in High River, Alta.

President Sheldon Clare said he’s glad the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP is examining the decision of Mounties to enter homes and seize legally owned rifles and shotguns, but he believes that investigation won’t “dig deep enough to find out why” that happened.

“For that reason, there simply must be a full judicial inquiry with a broad mandate to determine what happened and why in High River. The problem is far beyond one of police policy and procedure,” Clare said in a statement Tuesday.

Clare said he’s especially interested in whether the Alberta government played a role.

Justice Minister Peter MacKay said he hasn't ruled out calling an inquiry.

“We have not really had an opportunity to look into the merits of this,” MacKay said. “I would want to speak firstly to (Public Safety) Minister (Steven) Blaney to get his read on whether this is even something we would even contemplate.”

Blaney’s office refused comment on the possibility of an inquiry, saying only that the minister was waiting for the commission’s report.

Complaint investigators were in High River last week interviewing residents, but Commission spokesman Tim Cogan said that led to “more avenues of inquiry to follow up on.”

So, investigators plan to re-visit the community from Jan. 6 to 10.

Cogan said that means their report won’t be ready until late February, instead of being released this month.

 

[Jarnhamar]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1038496/in-briefing-note-to-blaney-hints-of-tighter-gun-control/

Senior RCMP officials invited Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney to a briefing on gun control at a police range in Ottawa in late September, at which they seemed to be nudging him toward stricter rules on some types of firearms.

Blaney’s office wouldn’t comment on the meeting. But the notes suggest his department’s pushing an issue – updates to decades-old gun laws – that failed to gain traction with his predecessor.

Canada hasn’t singled out any firearm by name for prohibition since the mid-1990s.

“It was envisioned that the classification framework would be updated as more firearms came on to the Canadian market, but it has not been updated since its inception in 1995,” a briefing note for the meeting says.

“Firearms … not mentioned in the regulations are, by default, categorized as non-restricted (e.g. many .50-calibre sniper rifles and other military and paramilitary type firearms are currently non-restricted.)”

More at link.

Some of the rumored possible changes
-Last August, the Canadian Association of Police Boards called for restrictions on ‘bullpup’ rifles, also non-restricted, which shorten a rifle’s length by placing the bolt and magazine and the rear of the barrel at the firer’s shoulder, much farther back than on a traditional rifle.

-In May 2010, an RCMP briefing note for then-Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said “a case could be made” for prohibiting the ‘family of VZ58 rifles,’ which externally resemble the banned AK-47.

-Rumours circulated this summer about a reclassification of the Swiss Arms Classic Green rifle.



I'm not sure what a VZ58 is but I'm going to buy one. Maybe pick up a Bullpup rifle while I'm at it.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1038496/in-briefing-note-to-blaney-hints-of-tighter-gun-control/

More at link.

Some of the rumored possible changes
-Last August, the Canadian Association of Police Boards called for restrictions on ‘bullpup’ rifles, also non-restricted, which shorten a rifle’s length by placing the bolt and magazine and the rear of the barrel at the firer’s shoulder, much farther back than on a traditional rifle.

-In May 2010, an RCMP briefing note for then-Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said “a case could be made” for prohibiting the ‘family of VZ58 rifles,’ which externally resemble the banned AK-47.

-Rumours circulated this summer about a reclassification of the Swiss Arms Classic Green rifle.



I'm not sure what a VZ58 is but I'm going to buy one. Maybe pick up a Bullpup rifle while I'm at it.

The CPC may hold them off on this, especially with an election coming. If the liberals get in, you can just about guarantee the RCMP will have carte blanche to muck around in the Firearms Act to do whatever they want.

Once again, they are determined to make criminals out of law abiding citizens. If you own a non restricted and they change the classification, on a whim, you become an instant criminal unless you enter into their registration system. If they deem it prohibited (any of the 12.* designations) and you don't hold that designation, or if they class it like the AK family, they will confiscate it, likely without compensation.

The end goal for these guys is to end run the system until everything, including your .22 Cooey is illegal to own.

They have banned different firearms, simply on looks, before. Even the court has been unsuccessful in getting them to explain exactly why certain firearms are reclassed, prohibited to own, when they pose no danger.

Don't forget, these are the same guys that still refuse to explain their illegal actions in High River. They feel immune and are simply acting in their own self interest. Laws be damned, your rights as a Canadian citizen don't count when they want something.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm naturally biased when it comes to gun control but I'm constantly shocked when I read about these pseudo solutions to gun control. Banning weapons because of their looks? How is that any different than discriminating against someone because of their skin colour.  I'm not surprised they can't explain they science behind their beliefs.

I was ready to accept that the RCMP were just trying to help in high river and I over reacted but after hearing about the inquiry I'm not so sure.

 

[Lightguns]

This should not be a surprise. The RCMP leadership likely has PER section leading change too, our leaders empire build daily wht shouldn't they?  Besides it's not like legal gun owners are going take over subdivision and declare their territory and scare a bunch of cops out of their knickers. Nope just comain and roll over rover. Taxpayers are sheep and sheep are easy to herd.

I bet the commissioner already has been told by the complaints commissioner his planned outcome to the High River complaints.  So he is back at the next line attack on guns in Canada. Besides those illegal guns are soooooo hard to find.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I'm naturally biased when it comes to gun control but I'm constantly shocked when I read about these pseudo solutions to gun control. Banning weapons because of their looks? How is that any different than discriminating against someone because of their skin colour.  I'm not surprised they can't explain they science behind their beliefs.

I was ready to accept that the RCMP were just trying to help in high river and I over reacted but after hearing about the inquiry I'm not so sure.

the classification of guns was done on a point system, it was intentionally designed to capture semi-automatic military rifles, points were given for bayonet holders, pistol grips, plastic furniture, action type. I seen the point system but don't have a copy. Basically the "look" of the gun was the deciding factor as it would accumulate points based on these minor features that would force it into a more restrictive class. 

 

[Dissident]

the classification of guns was done on a point system, it was intentionally designed to capture semi-automatic military rifles, points were given for bayonet holders, pistol grips, plastic furniture, action type. I seen the point system but don't have a copy. Basically the "look" of the gun was the deciding factor as it would accumulate points based on these minor features that would force it into a more restrictive class.

I think your are referring to the American AWB of 1994(?). Someone should be along shortly to detail how a copy of a gun digest was used to ban guns based on their looks.

 

[The Bread Guy]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1038496/in-briefing-note-to-blaney-hints-of-tighter-gun-control/

More at link.

Some of the rumored possible changes
-Last August, the Canadian Association of Police Boards called for restrictions on ‘bullpup’ rifles, also non-restricted, which shorten a rifle’s length by placing the bolt and magazine and the rear of the barrel at the firer’s shoulder, much farther back than on a traditional rifle.

-In May 2010, an RCMP briefing note for then-Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said “a case could be made” for prohibiting the ‘family of VZ58 rifles,’ which externally resemble the banned AK-47.

-Rumours circulated this summer about a reclassification of the Swiss Arms Classic Green rifle.

I'm not sure what a VZ58 is but I'm going to buy one. Maybe pick up a Bullpup rifle while I'm at it.

Here's what appears to be another media outlet's take on the same briefing note:

The RCMP is pushing Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney to list more guns as restricted or prohibited - a move one gun expert calls "absurd."

A briefing note prepared for Blaney in September, and released to a news outlet earlier this week, shows the force has its sights set on .50 caliber rifles, which are currently non-restricted.

"It was envisioned that the classification framework would be updated as more firearms came onto the Canadian market, but it has not been updated since its inception in 1995," reads the note prepared for Blaney ahead of a trip to the gun range on Sept. 30 with RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson and other officials for a hands-on look at the classification issue.

"Firearms not matching either of the two definitions and not mentioned in the regulations are, by default, categorized as non-restricted (e.g., many .50 caliber sniper rifles, and other military and paramilitary type firearms are currently non-restricted)."

Hardly the tool of gang members and bank robbers, rifles chambered in .50 BMG cost $5,000 or more, not including the equally priced scopes required and the expensive ammunition.

For the people who are trained to shoot these weapons, the prospect of re-classifying them is "absurd," says Rob Furlong, a former police office and sniper with the Canadian Forces who logged a record sniper kill with a .50 caliber rifle in Afghanistan in 2002. His Taliban target, who was carrying a machine gun, was 2,430 metres away.

"How many crimes in Canada have been committed using a .50 caliber rifle? None," Furlong said.

"This is not a weapon that you carry around with you in your pickup truck. Your average .50 cal rifle is 30 pounds and roughly four-and-a-half feet long. It's not inconspicuous."

Furlong also takes issue with people, including the RCMP, who call these guns "sniper rifles."

Any rifle in the hands of a military-trained sniper is a sniper's rifle, and Furlong said the distinction is important ....

In case you're interested, here's the briefing note obtained via ATIP by Global News.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

"It was envisioned that the classification framework would be updated as more firearms came onto the Canadian market, but it has not been updated since its inception in 1995," reads the note prepared for Blaney ahead of a trip to the gun range on Sept. 30 with RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson and other officials for a hands-on look at the classification issue.

This statement is indicative of the misinformation provided by the RCMP, to politicians and the public, since C-68 came into effect. It's a scare tactic to use on sheeple.

While the 'classifications system' has not changed, it contains sufficient wording enabling the RCMP to change the classification of firearms on a whim. They have done this numerous times, since then, with various firearms. Many had their classification changed from non restricted to restricted, and others from non restricted to prohibited, simply because they look military (box magazine and a pistol grip for example). The Firearms Act is full of guns that are restricted and prohibited simply because the RCMP and Allen Rock (Liberal) thought they looked 'scary'. Not because of any mechanical feature. Much of the initial classification by the liberals and RCMP was done by looking at pictures in gun books. If they didn't like the way it looked, it was classified as something other than non restricted.

The RCMP is making a big deal about 'sniper guns' cause that sounds scary. Make no mistake, they will eventually get your hunting rifle. Almost every seizure that is publicized, showing any scoped rifle, is often describing them as sniper rifles or military grade arms.

Even a scoped .22 Cooey squirrel gun.

It's a scare tactic being used by police forces throughout Canada and the States. A form of misinformation designed to create a problem for the uneducated, where none exists.

One recent example:

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/4255920-man-charged-after-police-seize-military-style-weapons-from-scarborough-home/

"Police seized a Savage 30.06 rifle, a Remington Super X 3 semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun and a .410-calibre single-shot shotgun during the execution of a search warrant at a home near Neilson and Sewells roads on Dec. 3.

“These are very high powerful military-style (weapons)  : that would do a lot of harm to a lot of people,” Yuen said. "

 

[Alberta Bound]

OK, newly registered after sitting on the side lines as a guest reading with interest. Here goes my first post. Let loose the dogs of sarcasm & criticism.

First off. Remember that a large percentage of "operational" RCMP members (yes many may wear the uniform but few are operational members day to day) were`t / aren`t sitting around crying because the long gun registry is gone. Lots felt quite the opposite. While the CACP was a huge proponent of the registry (for political reasons) the Chiefs don`t speak for the opinion of many of their frontline guys when it comes to publicly sensitive issues.

Front line cops go to all calls thinking about firearms being there. Whether a computer says there is, one, two, sixteen or none at the house, associated to that person. No different than soldiers putting absolute faith in an intel briefing before a patrol. Surprisingly, it may not be fully accurate.

Most of the members I work with use compassion, discretion and common sense when dealing with the public. That included two of my members who were in High River during the floods. Firearms were seized. Was it necessary in every case? I don`t know. In some cases yes it was (left on beds, in living rooms, in garages unsecured) while it was known that less than honest people would be trying to steal from honest people due to the circumstances. So some were seized. Is it as easy to return them. No. Because once they are in our possession we are bound by statute, regulations, policies on how and when we can return them. Have I seen a lot of charges out of firearms violations. No.

Will a complaint investigated by people in Ottawa with no experience in rural policing end up satisfying anyone?