The Gagetown Thread- Merged

[George Wallace]

Thirdly, IF you want to change that habit, then we start overseas by making everyone carry their weapons everywhere they go, thats including crew served. (which BTW I see all sorts of troops lock into their unarmoured vehs) We are at war there after all....

Very good Point.

I have yet to see anyone carry a weapon aboard a Charter Aircraft.  Bolts in pockets.  Weapons bundled into Arctic Tent Bags and put into hold.  I love the MPs when they pull out their books and say things like:  "It says here in Black and White what the Regulations are, and we will not interpret them differently."  and then proceed to interpret them differently.  ;D  (Ah yes, another story altogether.)

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

I can't believe people are even bringing up the possibility of "hiding" a weapon in a vehicle unattended.

Im not advocating it at all. Hence why I also proposed much less practicle ideas in order to take it with you.

 

[mover1]

CFB Shilo winter 2003 :warstory: I received a box of pugil equipment that wasn't quite right. The boxes side had split and the top of the triwall was just laying on top with no strapping.

The thing that caught my eye was the C-9 barrel sticking out of the hole in the side of the box.  I flip it open and low and behold 3- C9s  6 C-7s and about 30 40 MM  grenade launcher attachments. I freaked out because it (the Tri-wall was brought in by a civilian company and had been in their care for the 3 days, sitting in a warehouse going from truck to truck and handled by no less then a dozen people.

  The MP's were called, the sending unit was informed and the investigation turned up that the pugil equipment was sitting in the sending units secure lock up. The wrong box of goodies was shipped.

  I just happened to be the resident expert (at the time) on weapons shipments. Being that I myself had  F$%^&ED up a month before by not banding the corners of a Twi-wall bound for Edmonton with the proper seals. And as part of my CORRECTIVE TRAINING I was refreshed and reminded of the proper rules regarding weapons shipments...

The point of my Grandpa Simpson synopsis is this.... Stuff can go missing and does go missing all the time, and usually no one becomes aware of it until its too late if at all.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Couple of years ago, on a road move, we ended up having to switch the weapons from one vehicule to another, while on the ferrie. While being carefull, somene saw us and reported us to CFB Esquimalt. While we did nothing wrong, steps were taken to make sure such a situation never arose again. We have to keep civies happy.

Wow, thats interesting. We rucked around town in FFO with our weapons and no one complains here... we just get a bit of stupid comments: "Uhh, are those real?"

 

[c_canuk]

George Wallace

With posts like this, I am tempted to call you a poser.  I am sure that in the amount of time that you claim to have in the CF, eight years, even for a Reservist, you must have used the C7.  I am sure that in those eight years you must have stripped that weapon several times.  I am sure you would therefore know how small it can be broken down to.

jeeze dude why the harshness

I was wrong the C7 Standard upper Receiver is 73cm, still way to big to put in a standard back pack, but shouldn't be a problem to smuggle in a duffel, not ever having to smuggle a c7 in a duffel I have never tried, and mentioned that I'd heard that the duffel is too small, and stated that I've never tried it.

I am also sure that at one time or another, you or members of your Reserve unit have carried weapons in public.  That being the case, perhaps we have a further insight as to how this incident may have taken place

What? I'm missing something here... In the city I'm in, most people aren't even aware there is an armouries here, I've had weapons in public maybe 4 times, most of the times was on parade in DEUs, the only other was when I was on exercise at one of the reservoirs, and a civy in a truck saw me and called the cops... he accused me of pointing my weapon at him when he drove by, however I had witnesses confirming I had my rifle laying across my lap while pouring juice crystals into my canteen. I was known as a dangerous man with a beverage for a bit. 

My point was that civvies see assault rifles and pee themselves cause it's a rare occurrence... you as a senior member should know that, especially when you are throwing around the poser label  , maybe you are fortunate enough that the local populous has been inoculated with many oppoutunities to be exposed to soldiers with assault rifles, however we are not all so fortunate... ok?

 

[DG-41]

Summer of... '92 or 93, I've just transferred from the Regs to the Reserves. I'm out at ARCON in Gagetown with the PEIR as their maintainer. First time I've ever been to Gagetown, no co-driver, no radio. Just me and my MRT - did get a map though.

The guys would get stuck and call for recovery, and then manage to self-recover and carry on. With no radio, no way to tell me, so I spend a lot of time chasing my tail.

PEIR is the enemy force for the ex. I get a recovery call, and I'm told there is some urgency becasue the battle group is due to cross the LD very soon. I zip out there, find a mud hole and a bunch of Iltis tracks - again. On the off chance that they or I have the grid wrong, I go for a quick lap around Scotty Dog woods to see if I can find them. Bad idea - I get stuck myself. Attempt to self-recover; no joy.

And then the battle group shows up. Urk! So I lay low and let everybody advance through my position (nobody notices me, or they don't care about me)

After the thundering herd goes through, I see a lone Bison moving up. I remember hearing that a few MRTs in the area have been issued Bison. I can't see a callsign, a REME flag, or the REME horse on the back - but a lone Bison tagging along behind a battle group - who could it be?

So I chase him on foot for a couple of K. Every time I get close, the sonofabitch takes another bound, so it takes me a while to catch up, but I finally get him and hop up on the back, where the roof hatch is open. Whoops! Battle group command vehicle; the thing is full of Colonels. I try to take off, but an RCR full colonel figures out that I'm an *enemy* MRT and I get captured. I get a quick refresher course on the Geneva Convention and a can of orange juice, and I get to spend the rest of the battle run watching how commanding a battle group looks.

When we get to the end of the run, he hands me off to an MP, and the MP runs me back to my truck and helps pull me out. On the way out, the MP gets stuck and I return the favour. Finally we're bith back on the hard stand, and I go back to the hide - it's been a looong day. Heh - gonna get longer yet.

I hop out of my truck, go to pull my C7 out of the rack - no rifle. Oh, *shit*. I know I had it in the commander's Bison, because he took it away from me. I know I had it when I went to go get my truck, because I remember putting it in the rack in the MP truck. But I don't remember what I did with it after that. It could be in the MP truck, or it could be lying next to one of the holes one of us got stuck in.

Now I have a choice. I can sneak back out to the holes and look for it, or I can fess up and see if the MPs have it (and take the charge) I feel like a moron (Mr shit-hot ex-reg-force maintainer gets stuck, gets captured, and loses rifle in the process) and I *really* don't want anybody else to know about this... but the right thing is to fess up. So I go tell the Sgt Major. He calls the MPs, they find my rifle in the truck, and run it out to me - no harm, no foul, no charge (and amazingly, nobody gives me any hassle either)

After that, I got the weapons security religion in a BIG way, and never, ever, EVER let any weapon of mine out of my sight unless it was locked up, and never left an area before checking to make sure that my weapon was exactly where I thought it was. That feeling of horror when you look at a weapons rack and your weapon ain't there... I don't EVER want to feel that EVER again. It's, what, 14 years later, and I can still remember it like it was yesterday.

I also have a story about digging up a Yank 50 Cal in Wainright, but I'll save that one for another day.

DG

 

[mudgunner49]

This is nothing new, neither for the military or any other agency that is armed.  A few years back (mid-late 90's) a shipment of .40 cal Glock 22 pistols x 40 units went missing, shipping from Southern Ontario to Thunder Bay Police Service via courier.  A few have been recovered, but hte majority of these are floating around out there.  And we're tearing our hair out over a worn-out 40+ year old Brownng???  Mother****** PLEASE!!!  Colour me biased, but I'm thinking political fodder.

Things that make you say "Hmmmm"...


blake

 

[Devlin]

On a weekend EX and had to stop for re-fueling convoy. Stopped at a HWY truckstop in Northern Ontario (where the locals are usually better armed than us in some cases). Couple of civvies see weapons in our vehicles (SMP by the way) and call the cops. OPP show up, civvies demand to know what they are going to do about it. OPP guys were great laughed the whole thing off and ended up comparing gear with us for about 10-20 minutes. One of the cops was an ERT member and had his kit in his vehicle.

Civvies drove away fuming it was priceless.

 

[mudgunner49]

...Stopped at a HWY truckstop in Northern Ontario (where the locals are usually better armed than us in some cases)... 

Better armed???  Damn straight, and don't you forget it!!!  The "civvies" who complained were probably some lame-ass transplants from Southern Ontario.  To paraphrase Larry the Cable Guy "...leaf-munchin', tree-huggin', tofu-fartin' fairies..." ;D ;D  : ;D :


blake

 

[Douke]

Personally, I would just enter the Timms with my C7, unloaded and slinged. If you look like you are on normal duty and there is nothing special, and do not look agressive, usually people won't pay too much attention to it. I would rather get told by my superiors that we are going to be more careful about showing up in civilian areas with assault rifles then having ot tell them I lost one.

But since it is a pistol that was lost, couldnt it have just been slipped in a pocket, or concealed in a better way ? Heck, seeing how police enter Timms near where I live armed with pistols (holstered of course) all the time and no one even notice, I don't see why a military couldn't do the same, have to remember you are lawfully entitled to carry a weapon while in service if you use it responsibly and keep it secure.

But in conclusion, it was just an old 9mm pistol, much of what can be easily bought on the black market (I have had the chance to visit nearby mohawk reserve) is more powerful, reliable and accurate than that. It was an error, but the poor chap did not start the third wold war.

 

[chrisf]

But since it is a pistol that was lost, couldnt it have just been slipped in a pocket, or concealed in a better way ? Heck, seeing how police enter Timms near where I live armed with pistols (holstered of course) all the time and no one even notice, I don't see why a military couldn't do the same, have to remember you are lawfully entitled to carry a weapon while in service if you use it responsibly and keep it secure.

Not sure how the thread got warped in this direction, but the theoretical question of what do you do running in to take an emergency dump is not related to the actual loss of the weapon, of this I'm quite sure.

 

[Gayson]

During CAC my patrol ran into an en position.  I hopped into the Ilits and placed my rifle in, and once my crew got in we zipped off (I drove), stopping along the way to keep observation.  The en kept advancing so we kept taking bounds back.  When we backed off far enough I discovered my Rifle was no longer in the jeep.  It had been a pretty bumpy ride and the rifle flew out.

It didn't take long to find it laying on the ground beside the tire tracks a couple of hundred meters away.  Still, for a second I was afraid I was going to club ed.

I'm paranoid about losing my rifle now.

Shit happens, sometimes it may not seem like it was your fault.  Weapons safety is the members responcibility, there are NO extenuating circumstances and weapons must always be under proper care.

 

[Dissident]

I have been reading some of these posts about lost weapons, and I picture a reporter stumbling accross this thread.

Can't you just see the headline?:

"Large arsenal of anti tank machineguns, bazokas, powerfull handguns and automatic military rifles stolen."

Trough the freedom of information act, this reporter has found documents relating to a considerable amount of automatic weapons missing. The list includes rocket launchers intended to destroy tanks, capable of leveling commercial buildings, armor piercing machineguns with a range of up to 3 km and other machineguns more associated with Hollywood bad guys. The most concerning documents reports missing high explosive demolition charges and their detonators, in sufficient quantity to level a plethora of grade schools.

When asked about the missing weapons, DND spokeperson denied that any improvements to security were planned.



What do you guys think? Can I become a journalist for the Toronto Star or what?

 

[my72jeep]

Wasn't that in Quebec?

Yes the one with the guard killed was Quebec and there was an other one in Brampton or Bramford or some B city  some time back.

 

[my72jeep]

[

Then there's the story of the kid in NL that did his engineer course over the summer, and for every charge, would sneak a little bit of the C-4 off into his pocket....he got caught after he flew home in the fall with it when he was blasting stuff in the local quarry with the saved bits of C-4 and detcord, etc that he brought home. 
[/quote]

Yes that was 1986-87 blew up some boulders on the beach in down town Torbay every one wanted a piece of him RNC RCMP Mp's CP Cops.

In the 80's we carried our C1's everywere And if we deployed the C1 was in our barracks box.

 

[1feral1]

you might be able to put a broken down C7 into a duffel, I've heard you can't, but I've never tried.

Rant on :warstory:

Firstly, it really shytes me off when a jr member has a go at a snr one!

A duffel? I thought we called 'em kit bags in the CF? A duffel is very civvy sounding to me and used on too many US made war movies, and I too smell a rat/poser not only by these words, but the entire post just aint right. Ya, and I believe that quote from the CSM too  . That entire post 39 smells of bullshyte.

Luke, in post 63 of this thread you mention "the city you are in" (St John NB), then why do say this when your profile says you are currently deployed with the CF in the Middle East? Your msn profile says you are a civilian, a computer wrangler, and you want to be a pilot in the CF.

I suggest you pull your head in a bit, George is a long time member who has contributed very well, and has been around. I am sure has spent more time standing against the Mess urinal than you got in the army (that is if you even are). If you are ( and I say if) a MCPL (either RegF or PRes), you should show much more professionalism and leadership than your very piss weak words used in this thread.

With info you have given us on two sites (very wishy-washy), and the quality of your posts, I too smell a poser. Either sort yourself out on here, or move on.

Rant off  :warstory:

Wes

 

[old medic]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/print/CTVNews/1092911344585_5?hub=Canada&subhub=PrintStory

A CBC investigation last year found at least 10 sites since 1997 where Canadian Forces property was illegally stashed. In one case, a soldier in Saskatoon had weapons, ammunition and a mine-detonation kit stored in his house.

-In 1999, thieves broke a window at the Edmonton Garrison and made off with body armour, clubs and helmets.

-In 1997, nine semi-automatic pistols and 130 rounds of ammunition were stolen from an armoury in Hamilton.

-In 1992, a cache of automatic weapons -including 64 C-7 automatic rifles -disappeared from an armoury in Brantford, Ont.

 

[1feral1]

Good find mate! 64 C7 rifles out there somewhere, no doubt in the hands of crims. Thats scarey.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[NL_engineer]

George Wallace


jeeze dude why the harshness

I was wrong the C7 Standard upper Receiver is 73cm, still way to big to put in a standard back pack, but shouldn't be a problem to smuggle in a duffel, not ever having to smuggle a c7 in a duffel I have never tried, and mentioned that I'd heard that the duffel is too small, and stated that I've never tried it.

C_canuk the C7 when striped will fit in a nuke bag.

When stopping to timms, let your co driver go in, or if you don't have one do the forbidden and go through the drive through. Civi's are used to seeing people with hand guns on there belts, and would more then not say anthing about that, on the other hand they would probably say something if you walk into timms with your C7 (even with your mag out).

 

[blacktriangle]

Good find mate! 64 C7 rifles out there somewhere, no doubt in the hands of crims. Thats scarey.

Cheers,

Wes

I'm not familiar with security/lockup protocols- just how does that happen?

I've only been in one armoury, but didn't see any C7's just laying around.