TF 1-07

[GUNS]

I can see from your replies that all is not  a bed of roses and the guys should suck it up and soldier on. In most cases I would say the same thing. My point is that when soldiers are being trained for combat, why make their life any harder than necessary. My son and his friends have been in long enough to know the routine of how the military operates(or does not operate). I have heard these stories before and I have experienced it myself.
My son and his friends have been putting up with this since June and have stuck it out but enough is enough. Latest rumors have them moving again,  I advised them to wait and see before flying of the handle. Kit have been stolen already and everyone is aware of the paperwork involved when reporting missing kit.
Someone asked what was the issue with money, unless my son or one of his friends volunteers that info, I can't answer it. If my son finds out I'm doing this, they will never find my body.
I agree with who ever said, it is not the living quarters that's the problem, it's the moving. Our boys say the same thing. The money issue was not their doing, HQ told them they were owed money.  I don't know the reason why. I agree that training will be a concern, lack of instructors, lack of guidance, lack of material, lack of space but these guys had over a year to get ready.

I'll leave with this quote: Never ask why something was done,
                                    the real answer is found when you ask why something was not done.

 

[geo]

Guns,
Have been around the ramping up of many TFs over the years.  The Reserve component has had a tough go many a times but, most Bases and areas are adapting and learning.  Gagetown hasn't been in the loop much for a long time.  Gagetown units have oft been components of other CMBGs so some of the planning has been willy nilly and base operations geared towards catering to the Schools.

Time will tell if they too learn their lessons well.

 

[armyvern]

From what I've seen from some of the the BG folks, they're doing a little better than the RCG/NCE/NSE, but have their own issues. For example, the guys in the companies are staying in larger rooms, with over 20 troops. The upside is that they have been able to stay there consistently (without being moved around constantly), but not even having lockers to store kit has caused a fair bit of kit theft (not from them....they can't lock their room).

The biggest beef from the TF 1-07 folks is in part being moved around so much. I don't think people mind so much living in cramped conditions, but its the moving around that is the source of frustration. I think they have a point. Sure, Gagetown is a the home to quite a few schools, and sees a large number of candidates come every summer for courses, but I think there is merit to arguing that maybe they should have been the ones going to 'FOB Argonaut' instead of the TF 1-07 folks. I'm new to the base, but it would seem to me that it would be much easier to block off a couple of buildings for TF 1-07 pers, who will require R&Q until Feb (Wainwright excluded), and push any overflow (courses) to Argonaut for the duration (a much smaller period)? It has to be more difficult to book R&Q for a group of pers, and them re-booking them for each exercise? Accomodations wanted to re-book each of us in our cell for each of the Virtual/Royal Archer exercises (even though they were in sequence)...it took a lot of pushing from 2 RCR to fix it.

:dontpanic:

And I think your post above highlights exaclty why Gagetown should not be considered/used as a mounting base, but rather the training base that it is.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Well, that makes the unofficial motto of TF 1-07 all the more appropriate

'Why plan, when you can react?'

:dontpanic:

Thats hilariously accurate.

On the living conditions, they were quite ridiculous for a while. When my group of guys left the RCG D/S group and came to Gagetown, we were put in Argonaut and were told we would be there for a short time untill R/Q were sorted out. That turned out to be over a month staying there... a bit of a hike to work. Alot of us didnt have cars and not enough to pool everybody all the time, and because of argonazis rules, we were not permitted to park our vehicles outside of the parking lot way the hell down the road.. anyway.

After we were moved out of there at the end of june or so, we went into shacks in the D lines. They put 23 of us in one of those common rooms they use for TVs and such. Just bunkbeds.. no footlockers or anything, and only one key to the room, so kit theft was a large problem, everything was always a mess with everyones kit everywhere.. it was very frustrating and aggrivating. I even went so far as to sleep in my car for a bit untill in late august when they moved us into 4 man rooms.

It was a long time coming and alot of bull**** but accomodations are sorted out and everybody is happy, no need to call CTV on that one.

Id offer my opinion on the training and such, but im not going on record with that one, thats a whole other can of worms im not going to open.

As far as the reservists go, if anyone is concerned about us, we're all making out just fine training and PT wise, and are having no problem keeping up with the regf. We're all soldiers and we're all doing our jobs, and the transition from reserve life to regular as far as training and working goes was done with little difficulty as far as I can tell.

If anything, the regular troops are having a problem keeping up with us!  ;D

 

[geo]

Good post Mack.

Still of the opinion that Quarters in CTC are semi permanently handed out to the Schools and this ramping up of a TF "did not compute" with the boys & girls who make decisions and control R&Qs (not you Vern).

Someone shoulda thought of it and planned in advance.

 

[armyvern]

CTC students were in the same posn regarding quarters this year and past years. Modular cities being erected every summer for LFAA TC students and others etc is nothing new. This was adressed years ago by the Comd, who has made it a priority to build new accomodations in Gagetown and this is currently taking place.

Unfortunately, way back, Gagetown fell to the bottom of Army priorities for new infrastructure because it was "only a Training Base" and monies were being directed to actual honest-to-goodness mounting bases instead.

Which is exactly why they shouldn't be used as a mounting Base. The infrastructure and support personnel simply aren't there. Either that, or take your pick, STOP all training and courses and task those instructors/support staff to support the Op. We can't do both simultaneously.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Absolutely!

We were actually told by accomodations, (many of us went up there independantly after a few weeks of this nonsense, breathing fire and doom) to get an explanation, and they told us that they had "higher priorities", and we would have to wait untill all the troops in d24 on demo.... demo for the inf school would have to clear out.

Now, I would apparently be silly to assume that troops being prepared for combat in afghanistan would be the highest priority to take care of, since this is the entire purpose of the military is to fight the enemy, but evidently accomodations had other plans.

What also drove us mad was the fact that there is no way they didnt know we were coming, and they had months in advance to plan for the 50 some odd guys augmenting 2rcr, and when we arrived, almost nothing was in place, but at that point it was par for the course.. like otto said, "why plan when you can react!" Thats exactly what it was like for months.

No offense to RCR at all, they tried to get us rooms and did everything they could for us, but higher slacked off and didnt get the job done, and didnt listen. Cudos to our sergeant major who busted his ass to get us in rooms.

Like I said, the horror show ended before our first exercise and as far as I can tell, everyone is fairly comfortable.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

CTC students were in the same posn regarding quarters this year and past years. Modular cities being erected every summer for LFAA TC students and others etc is nothing new. This was adressed years ago by the Comd, who has made it a priority to build new accomodations in Gagetown and this is currently taking place.

Unfortunately, way back, Gagetown fell to the bottom of Army priorities for new infrastructure because it was "only a Training Base" and monies were being directed to actual honest-to-goodness mounting bases instead.

Which is exactly why they shouldn't be used as a mounting Base. The infrastructure and support personnel simply aren't there. Either that, or take your pick, STOP all training and courses and task those instructors/support staff to support the Op. We can't do both simultaneously.

That makes alot of sense when you say that. The overall sense of being unprepared was everywhere, but its coming around.

One problem I do have though, is with kit. We're going on another exercise soon, and we're still using all kinds of old kit that we wont be using overseas. Id really like to get some Gen3 armor and ditch these old 1966 sweatervests and get some time to adjust and get used to wearing it. Same for the boots we'll be using, and all the other theatre specific gear we need. Im really hoping it doesnt turn out to be 2 weeks before we deploy and, oh heres all your stuff, have fun.

 

[Gunner]

Unfortunately, way back, Gagetown fell to the bottom of Army priorities for new infrastructure because it was "only a Training Base" and monies were being directed to actual honest-to-goodness mounting bases instead.

I can not comment on accn in Petawawa or Valcartier as I haven't been there recently.  I would guess that most "mounting bases" have minimal temporary accn to support large influxes of augmentees.  Infrastructure is expensive to build and maintain which is why tent cities are quite popular at training establishments.  Should DND spend millions of dollars on temporary accn if it is only used for a limited four month (May - Aug) period every year?  Even worse is limited six month periods every 2-3 years.  I think there are better places to place our limited resources.

My comments above do not negate the requirement for proper planning for large influxes of soldiers for training, deployment or redeployment.  As an example, for the redeploying elements of TF 1-06, they were placed into hotels rather than have them stay several nights in the limited facilites in Edmonton.

Finally, when I lived in the shack/tent cities, we really only slept there as trg and other activities kept us fully engaged during most of the waking hours.   As long as it was relatively dry, we were fine.

 

[geo]

Im really hoping it doesnt turn out to be 2 weeks before we deploy and, oh heres all your stuff, have fun.

Uh oh... you're setting yourself up for dissapointment....

 

[armyvern]

Infrastructure is expensive to build and maintain which is why tent cities are quite popular at training establishments.  Should DND spend millions of dollars on temporary accn if it is only used for a limited four month (May - Aug) period every year?  Even worse is limited six month periods every 2-3 years.  I think there are better places to place our limited resources.

Gunner, I agree with your sentiments on temp accomodations and better places to spend our resources. Gagetown doesn't even have enough quarters for it's living in personnel or augmentee staff on a year round basis. Even the permanent Snr NCOs are doubled up/tripled up in rooms etc ad nauseum. Accomodations (well the lack of them anyway) are a year-round problem in Gagetown and not just for students.

You get posted here, you have 1 year in quarters, then you must move out. And it's not easy to find yourself alternate arrangements in the huge-boomin-industrial town of Oromocto to do that.

 

[Gunner]

Ack.  Similar problems in Wx as well.

 

[GUNS]

Guns,
Throughout the summer, CTC Gagetown has been chock a block full of troops taking courses - School of Engineering, Armd & Infantry are all there & as the centre of excellence - everyone goes there to learn.... so yeah - quite possible facilities were stretched.
Could tell ya that TF 2/06 was training in Valcartier last summer ('05).  For part of the summer = they were quartered under canvas (concrete pads).  It wasn't the Ritz but the troops were made as comfortable as possible - take it or leave it......... there wasn't any widespread quitting by the reservists... it was explained- it was understood - all was up front - no secrets, no surprises.

With respect to the money..... would need to know what the problem is / was. What promisses were made, advances paid and reason for it's being claimed back.

If the troopies didnt have the basics of their 2050 form signed off - they can't be put onto class C - is that it?




Geo,

The money problem began when Payroll informed the guys that too much Income Tax was deducted and they would be refunded the excess Income Tax.

They went to see the Payroll clerk to confirm that the money will not have to be given back. They were assured that the money was theirs. Some guys spent the money. They were later informed that the money had to be returned.

Not happy campers to say the least. Some said they would cancel their contract if they are forced to return the money. Others said that they will not renew their contract in Dec. This may all be "Pi**ed off" talk and their attitudes may change upon returning to G'town.

Geo, the reason for all this talk is not only the money its a combination of many very stupid mistakes that should have been dealth with months ago.

You can not and should not make the soldiers suffer for others mistakes. Someone is going to have to step up to the plate on this one and rectify the situation or the TF will lose valuable people.

To the man, all want to complete their mission to A'gan but enough is enough.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Uh oh... you're setting yourself up for dissapointment....

cant say im surprised

 

[TCBF]

"Ack.  Similar problems in Wx as well."

(TCBF adopts Tom Berenger's SSgt Barnes' accent):

"Talkin' bout Wainwright accomodations?  Y'all experts? Y'all know about Wainwright accomodations?"

;D

 

[geo]

Guns,

As was pointed out by many people, Gagetown is not a base that has lots of experience for ramping up TFs and thus, a lot of people are being forced to deal with things for the 1st time.  This is not an excuse - it's an explanation.  There are many, many people like Armyvern who are busting their a$$ trying to get the job done but, CTC has been off the beaten path for so long that it's been fortgotten or discounted more times than we care to think about....

With a full time CMBG HQ in Gagetown, the TF types might have been taken more seriously by Base, Area and NDHQ staff weenies.

There are some good people at 2RCR working on solving these problems - they'll get 'er done.....

 

[TCBF]

A good time for the old guys to say "I told you so!" when we realize it would have been nice NOT to have lost 3 Bde from Camp Gagetown in the late 60s.

 

[geo]

hindsight = 20/20 ?

 

[Donut]

"Should DND spend millions of dollars on temporary accn if it is only used for a limited four month (May - Aug) period every year?  Even worse is limited six month periods every 2-3 years.  I think there are better places to place our limited resources."

Really?  If the CF needs res augmentees, then maybe that is the place to spend some resources.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but if the CF is counting and relying on Res mbrs coming forward to serve on these deployments, and they pull pin halfway through due to shitty accomodations and poor tng standards, then maybe this is EXACTLY where we need to spend some resources, else we can't staff and deploy the TFs.

For an organization that claims that the individual member is the most important asset they have, then treating those thinking, breathing resources as valuable might be the way to go, else all we've got is some well armed, understrength parking lots.

I've got lots of buddies who've been, are tng to go, or are chomping at the bit to get over there; hell, I've got family in the same boat, some who've been there three or four times to date, and I salute them for it.  Those who are reservists are sucking hind teat every time they get in line, and that's making many others debate why they would do it.

Acknowledging that G'town is unique (boy is it ever), treating augmentees like crap is what got WATC into the crap bin it's been in for the past several years; demonstrating that the soldiers are valued members of the team, fairly treated and well looked, after is the solution.

And, yeah, TCBF, I've been there often enough.

My .01 (I've got two mortages, I need the other)

DF

 

[GUNS]

Guys are willing to tuff it out for a while longer. I suggested trying to get someone to listen to their concerns(again). If only people would explain to them the  situation, I think they would understand. There is no need to treat them like mushrooms, " Kept in the dark, and feed Sh*t".

When you treat them like soldiers, they will act like soldiers.