TF-08 Bison Drivers
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n update. As of the 19th of January we now have 5 personnel from 12 Fd Amb training up to be Bison drivers for TF 1-08. It also looks like we might be sending two PCP medics as well for the Role 3 facility and our Adjt as a CIMIC officer. ;D
Now if we can just get them to take a new snapshot for the Reserve Restructure study....
Now if we can just get them to take a new snapshot for the Reserve Restructure study....
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Getting the bison course is a great thing for bothe Reg and Res type medics, however for the current ops in Afghanistan the drivers at least should be non med pers. When I was in Bosnia I was the driver for the Bison only because the Coy I was with had no qualified drivers to give up. Right now in Kandahar our drivers are RCD. The crew commander is still a medic for the simple reason that they can control the medical end of the call properly as well as back up the junior medic if required. It would be nice to have a crew commander that was not a medic and have two med techs in the back. We simply do not have the manpower to do that. Our medic crew commanders have shown they up to the task and are not afraid to fight back when needed, but in the future a combat arms crew commander should be in the hole and that other mediccould be put where he/she is needed. 
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I agree with Bisonmedic on this one. The driving and commanding of AFV should be left to the people whom have the most experience with them. I understand the problem with not having enough avail crew commanders around to command, and therefore causing Medics to be commanders taking them away from their primary role, and have a small solution to it. Take the Reserve Armd MCpls who have applied for positions and place them as Bison Amb CC's. Instead of having them sit in J1/J3/J4 positions. Just a thought.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Love793 said:
After all these pages, that has been the gist of the discusion.
Time for an ex amb pusher to step in and add opinion..
This is just that, my opinion, nothing more. Nothing less. Just my 2c.
I am an MSE op who has driven the Bison Amb overseas in Kabul, Roto 3. For whatever reason, we were selected to drive HSS's ambs. This is what I take away from the experience and what I have learned from it, as we had lots of discussion in the smoking pit regarding this topic.
Having an MSE op driving, a medic MCpl crew commanding and a medic as an air sentry would be ideal. In the event of injury, the air sentry can dive down with the patient, and do what he needs to to assist the patient. Should a more severe case happen, the crew commander can assist if needed, while the driver can drive the amb and focus solely on that. The CC has the advantage of being truly in command of the boat, and the overall command of coms with zero and 83. This is essential as the CC has to relay the patient information to 83 as we come in, so that 83 can prepare for the incoming.
So why use truckers as drivers? Experience is one thing. Also with our lack of medical knowledge, we would be less likely to interfere with the action going on in the back and get the patient to 83 as soon as possible. All we should need to know is where the kit is in the boat, so if it is needed we can get it for them. We drive for a living. Its what we do, medical magic is not part of the equation, nor should it be.
Having a medic driving a bison is not a bad thing, just about anyone can drive a bison. They really are not a difficult vehicle to operate, however, could you imagine yourself driving a bison, hearing through the intercom what is going on 5 feet behind you and then trying to resist the urge of not trying to put in some helpful advice? The medic is busy enough doing his job as is. And if he is really that busy, he might have the crew commander trying to help. They don't need your distraction, or input. You need to focus on what your job is, getting everyone safely and quickly back to 83. And in places like Afghan, you need all the concentration you have, and even more so when the CC is down assisting, as your 2nd set of eyes are now gone.
To obtain a bison qualification, you need training on the bison specifically, the amb specifically, and the general training of air brakes. If your a medic, thats closer to 10 weeks of training, easily. As a trucker, you only need the bison, and the amb which can be done in 3 weeks as were already qualified air brakes. Not trying ot make a stab, just a general statement. Why waste a medics time?
Just my two cents.
This is just that, my opinion, nothing more. Nothing less. Just my 2c.
I am an MSE op who has driven the Bison Amb overseas in Kabul, Roto 3. For whatever reason, we were selected to drive HSS's ambs. This is what I take away from the experience and what I have learned from it, as we had lots of discussion in the smoking pit regarding this topic.
Having an MSE op driving, a medic MCpl crew commanding and a medic as an air sentry would be ideal. In the event of injury, the air sentry can dive down with the patient, and do what he needs to to assist the patient. Should a more severe case happen, the crew commander can assist if needed, while the driver can drive the amb and focus solely on that. The CC has the advantage of being truly in command of the boat, and the overall command of coms with zero and 83. This is essential as the CC has to relay the patient information to 83 as we come in, so that 83 can prepare for the incoming.
So why use truckers as drivers? Experience is one thing. Also with our lack of medical knowledge, we would be less likely to interfere with the action going on in the back and get the patient to 83 as soon as possible. All we should need to know is where the kit is in the boat, so if it is needed we can get it for them. We drive for a living. Its what we do, medical magic is not part of the equation, nor should it be.
Having a medic driving a bison is not a bad thing, just about anyone can drive a bison. They really are not a difficult vehicle to operate, however, could you imagine yourself driving a bison, hearing through the intercom what is going on 5 feet behind you and then trying to resist the urge of not trying to put in some helpful advice? The medic is busy enough doing his job as is. And if he is really that busy, he might have the crew commander trying to help. They don't need your distraction, or input. You need to focus on what your job is, getting everyone safely and quickly back to 83. And in places like Afghan, you need all the concentration you have, and even more so when the CC is down assisting, as your 2nd set of eyes are now gone.
To obtain a bison qualification, you need training on the bison specifically, the amb specifically, and the general training of air brakes. If your a medic, thats closer to 10 weeks of training, easily. As a trucker, you only need the bison, and the amb which can be done in 3 weeks as were already qualified air brakes. Not trying ot make a stab, just a general statement. Why waste a medics time?
Just my two cents.
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Hmmm, I've never felt the urge to stop the car, crawl in back, and tell my partner what to do, except when it's a cute little ski bunny who might benefit from some more, uhm, personal attention ;D
[quote
author=Howie link=topic=54676/post-537527#msg537527 date=1173203045]
Time for an ex amb pusher to step in and add opinion..
This is just that, my opinion, nothing more. Nothing less. Just my 2c.
I am an MSE op who has driven the Bison Amb overseas in Kabul, Roto 3. For whatever reason, we were selected to drive HSS's ambs. This is what I take away from the experience and what I have learned from it, as we had lots of discussion in the smoking pit regarding this topic.
...
Also with our lack of medical knowledge, we would be less likely to interfere with the action going on in the back and get the patient to 83 as soon as possible. All we should need to know is where the kit is in the boat, so if it is needed we can get it for them
...
Having a medic driving a bison is not a bad thing, just about anyone can drive a bison. They really are not a difficult vehicle to operate, however, could you imagine yourself driving a bison, hearing through the intercom what is going on 5 feet behind you and then trying to resist the urge of not trying to put in some helpful advice?
[/quote]
BUT, I agree, having an MSE Op drive isn't a bad thing, it is what they do, after all. Thanks for that, Howie.
[quote
author=Howie link=topic=54676/post-537527#msg537527 date=1173203045]
Time for an ex amb pusher to step in and add opinion..
This is just that, my opinion, nothing more. Nothing less. Just my 2c.
I am an MSE op who has driven the Bison Amb overseas in Kabul, Roto 3. For whatever reason, we were selected to drive HSS's ambs. This is what I take away from the experience and what I have learned from it, as we had lots of discussion in the smoking pit regarding this topic.
...
Also with our lack of medical knowledge, we would be less likely to interfere with the action going on in the back and get the patient to 83 as soon as possible. All we should need to know is where the kit is in the boat, so if it is needed we can get it for them
...
Having a medic driving a bison is not a bad thing, just about anyone can drive a bison. They really are not a difficult vehicle to operate, however, could you imagine yourself driving a bison, hearing through the intercom what is going on 5 feet behind you and then trying to resist the urge of not trying to put in some helpful advice?
[/quote]
BUT, I agree, having an MSE Op drive isn't a bad thing, it is what they do, after all. Thanks for that, Howie.
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I hate to ruin the thread, but apparently (from what I have heard), the bisons don't leave the camps! In addition, the air sentry is also no more, more risk than good. Keep in mind that this is third party news we received during roto 4 training to date. All I know is apparently my position switches camps every month!! Apparently using chopper tpt. However, I would prefer an MSE Driver, an infantry CC, and 2 medics in the back. That being said, I am no longer a medic.
The training for Roto 4 in Texas was very educational in what to expect for IEDs and was an eye opener for all the members of the tour!
The training for Roto 4 in Texas was very educational in what to expect for IEDs and was an eye opener for all the members of the tour!
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Just for your info, the Bison Ambs do leave the camps and are out everywhere you could imagine and have taken quite the beatings. The boats have to be up with the fighting troops so they can act as the CCP and evac to the fobs,etc.
GINge!
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Howie said:
Howie, in this particular case, we aren't wasting a medics time.
The Bison dvr positions on 1-08 are MOC 971 (Any) positions that happen to be filled with 'unqualified'* medics. Ie, if these 8 x PRes Medtechs were not filling the dvr positions, they would not be going over on Roto 5 in any other capacity.
That being said, I have nothing against an MSE Op (or other MOC) filling a driver position, particularly if they can bring those skills back to the Fd Amb and help instruct on Amb driver courses.
*meaning they don't have PCP qual and as such cannot deploy as medics on Roto 5.
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Howie- your reply #69 there are some inconsistently with about medical knowledge and veh quals. Try reading CFP 158.5 TD 556 about Amb qualifications which req 1 yr on the veh, certain medical qualifications before you get a Amb qual ( C17, G16, G17 C71). Bison AVGP do not require a Airbrake course either. Only Spec for 121 system, HLVW, LAV 3 and the nyala are Airbrakes endorsements. You can check with Adm Coy tpt or your Sect Comd. If you have access to the Intranet try D Tn 3 under publications
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