TF-08 Bison Drivers

[MED_BCMC]

Med BMCM... as you stated, Res Medics who do not have their PCP can't work in the back....
Can you please extrapolate as to why, in pre-predeployment trg, same said medics can't get their qualification on the Reg force's nickle?
Can't the PCP be broken down into modules to make em shorter but the sum of all being equal to the whole.

The same way as I can use an untrained soldier in a GD position, I have no problem employing em in "other" tasks if I am in deep need and there is no one else but, would think that training em up to PCP standard would be a better alternative.

:warstory: Just my view from the trenches.  :warstory:

I'll do my best.
There was a plan discussed a little while ago, that would take a Reserve Force Medic, put them on a PCP course, send them on deployment and use them to instruct afterwards. (A Class C contract for 3 years). That plan didn't end up coming into effect because.... ? I don't know why actually. This problem is being thought about at the highest level within the Reserve Force Advisor Shop, but I don't think there has been any developments yet.

The PCP courses being offered to reservists (as part of the new PCP initiative) are being run by a civilian training institutions and cannot be broken down into modules.

 

[geo]

Uhhh... how long is the PCP course?

 

[medic269]

Which one? If you look in Ontario it's 2 years.  JIBC I believe has it down to 4 months for the Reg force now.  Different courses have different "added" content which will shorten or lengthen the course. Another factor is the amount of preceptorship required to complete the course. 

 

[geo]

.... well... what does it take to train a reserve medic to a level where he is employable on deployment?

1 month, 12 months, 24 months?

The CME took a decision that reservists would take the very same course QL3 & QL5 as their Reg force counterpart.... Reservists stating in 2006 have had their DP1 (QL3) course stretched out over two summers.....

What has the medical branch been doing?

Employing Medics as bus drivers isn't my idea of creative employment of a scarce resource (but that's just me).

 

[ModlrMike]

Let's put this in real terms. On average, the RegF MedTech has 2.5 to 3 years full time experience, which includes PCP, Comms, driver, and any number of BTLS etc type courses, and clinical experience before they deploy. It would therefore be only prudent to ensure that our ResF brethren have an equivalent amount of training and experience behind them before they deploy. The end goal is the same... it's lives at stake if we make a mistake and rush MedTechs into battle regardless of which component they serve in.

 

[Command-Sense-Act 105]

x

 

[Roy Harding]

+1

For the record - I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm a retired CSS WOG.

 

[Armymedic]

I should know better than to post when I am tired, sick and under the effects of mulitple medications.

Perhaps I am slightly out of my lane IRT CC AFVs as I did not complete an Armour 6A or Ph3...I am aware of what I do not know. What I do know though is if you are a "fighting" a Bison Amb regardless of your MOC, then it is a very bad day for everyone except the enemy. But we are not talking about crew commanding...but drivers (and I apologize for my post last night if I pulled it in that way).

For drivers of Bison ambulances on deployments.

I believe that the use of Res F medics who are not PCP qualified as bison drivers is a good use of a resource that previously has not been employed overseas. Our TFs are hurting for pers, and Res F medics are hurting for employment opportunities overseas. Sounds like a good plan to me. It is a workable plan.  And the bonus is that these less experienced Res F medics can watch and learn from thier more experienced Reg F peers.

 

[Bigmac]

      St Michael's you and I have worked together before but I do not necessarily agree with you on this topic. I believe the drivers of the bison ambs should have good solid driving experience ie certain amount qualifying hours driving a bison before being deployed into a driver position overseas. The driver must be capable of quickly interpreting CC directions and be able to competently employ evasive manouvers when required. You and I both know that the Res Med techs getting basic Bison driver course do not fit into this category.
      Wouldn't you rather have a bison driver who knows the vehicle inside and out and has hundreds of hours of driving experience? When we went to Bosnia you qualified a few medics as bison drivers. Did you feel totally confident in their skills for deployment to theatre of operations? Be honest.

 

[tank recce]

[quote/] Saith St. Micheal's Medical Team:

I should know better than to post when I am tired, sick and under the effects of mulitple medications.

Perhaps I am slightly out of my lane IRT CC AFVs as I did not complete an Armour 6A or Ph3...I am aware of what I do not know. What I do know though is if you are a "fighting" a Bison Amb regardless of your MOC, then it is a very bad day for everyone except the enemy. But we are not talking about crew commanding...but drivers (and I apologize for my post last night if I pulled it in that way).

For drivers of Bison ambulances on deployments.

I believe that the use of Res F medics who are not PCP qualified as bison drivers is a good use of a resource that previously has not been employed overseas. Our TFs are hurting for pers, and Res F medics are hurting for employment opportunities overseas. Sounds like a good plan to me. It is a workable plan.  And the bonus is that these less experienced Res F medics can watch and learn from thier more experienced Reg F peers.
[/quote]

As a Bison/Cougar pusher with many years in both hatches:

First, your ResMedA is going to get SFA OJT on a live patient. When you're in the front hatch, you are aware of NOTHING going on in the trunk behind you. Your keen learner will get more experience at the aid station back at the FOB.

Second (Mods chop this if it violates OpSec)

YMMV

 

[Franko]

Second (Mods chop this if it violates OpSec)

You're out of date.....and we'll leave it at that.       

Regards


MOD Note: Any discussions on tactical deployment/ SOPs being used in theater will not be tollerated. You have been warned.

 

[HCA]

Wow.  Send off a little missive and it turns into a full on discussion. 

To clarify. 
1) I believe the DRIVER positions were given to HSG as the Army said they could not fill them. I can confirm this after the break if anyone is dying to know.
2) I have no idea who will be crew commanding.  Certainly not reserve Medics I am sure. 
3) They are trained ambulance drivers.  One is an MSE Op.  The other 2 are Medics who lack PCP training as the system is not yet in place yet for large numbers of Res Medics to take the PCP training.  I believe in all of the Medical Reserve their are 4-6 members who will get this training this year. 
4) They are being put on Class B contracts vice class C, as if they do not pass muster they will be RTU.  I am sure the people that make these decisions will not send people over to do the job unless they can do it right.  If they can't cut it, send them back to unit rather than endanger anyone. I wouldn't want anything else.
5) They are starting this training In January of 2007.  This is a full year of driving and preparing to do the job.  Not bad at all in my books, but I could be wrong.

Guess I should check my posts a little more often to keep them on track. 

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Wow.  Send off a little missive and it turns into a full on discussion. 

To clarify. 

1) I believe the DRIVER positions were given to HSG as the Army said they could not fill them. I can confirm this after the break if anyone is dying to know.

Exactly.  If there are any LFWA crewmen lurking out there wanting to Bison drive, they'd better step up now.  There's no shortage of positions.

2) I have no idea who will be crew commanding.  Certainly not reserve Medics I am sure.

+1  Who said medics would be crew commanding?

3) They are trained ambulance drivers.  One is an MSE Op.  The other 2 are Medics who lack PCP training as the system is not yet in place yet for large numbers of Res Medics to take the PCP training.  I believe in all of the Medical Reserve their are 4-6 members who will get this training this year.

And that's the answer.

4) They are being put on Class B contracts vice class C, as if they do not pass muster they will be RTU.  I am sure the people that make these decisions will not send people over to do the job unless they can do it right.  If they can't cut it, send them back to unit rather than endanger anyone. I wouldn't want anything else.

5) They are starting this training In January of 2007.  This is a full year of driving and preparing to do the job.  Not bad at all in my books, but I could be wrong.

Again, exactly right.  These will be fully-qualified Regular Force PCF-trained drivers.  How are these guys any different than the PPCLI soldiers about to start the same training?  We have a bunch of guys firing sabot without knowing all the facts/background.  The tiny number of drivers we're talking about are in positions currently no-filled.  LFWA has been directed to single source all positions.  HSG said they could fill, had people willing to become fully qualified that couldn't be employed elsewhere, and these positions had already been bounced as no-fills.

Again, pointless pontificating without the required background isn't helpful.

 

[Armymedic]

Who said medics would be crew commanding?

I did, cause Reg F 5B medics are.

 

[Groucho]

There are personal from my TA unit (Scottish Transport Regiment RLC (V) ) currently in Iraq driving armoured Landrovers for an infantry unit! The idea behind this is allows more infantrymen to be in the bricks! so if a medic is willing to drive a Bison amb then its ok by me! Before anybody I do not know what I am talking about I spent 10 years in the 48th Highlanders before I moved to Scotland !

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I did, cause Reg F 5B medics are.

Roger, but I was referring to this specific instance.

 

[GINge!]

Wow.  Send off a little missive and it turns into a full on discussion. 

To clarify. 
1) I believe the DRIVER positions were given to HSG as the Army said they could not fill them. I can confirm this after the break if anyone is dying to know.

Correct, and here's some background info. There were 4 key issues to employing PRes MedTechs as Bison drivers:

1. In 1 CMBG, the posns have traditionally gone to LdSH(RC), however given the Leopard C2 tasks, manpower at their Regt is at a premium. The Strathcona's indicated that they would likely no-fill these positions - keep in mind that on the Trg TO&E, these are NOT 021 (Armd), but are rather 971 (Any) MOC. Furthermore, there were no PRes Armour units that submitted nominations which made it to the CFTPO for those positions.

2. As has been discussed, we have had a number of interested PRes medics in 1 HSG who want to go on tour, but are not qualified to go as medics. The only non-clinical positions they could fill in the HSS TF are the 6 x Bison driver ones.

3. Coincidentally, 1 Fd Amb was able to get positions on a 1 Svc Bn Bison Dvr crse in Jan 07.

4. And, CFMG approved 1 HSG's plan to use of PRes Bison drivers

As a result, I asked that LFWA source those positions to CFMG with the logical recommendation that 1 HSG fill them. This is in keeping with the 'single source' TF that is coming on line with 1-08. This will give those soldiers 1 full year of driving experience prior to deployment. Six of those positions will be going to PRes soldiers (already identified). Those soldiers will be on Cl B until 2 Apr, at which time they will be given Cl C contracts. Provided all gateway trg is successful, the soldier DAGs Green, and the HSTF Comd approves, they will be going to war as Bison Amb drivers. I believe 2 of the RegF soldiers are MSE Op Dvr Examiner qualified. I am not certain of the other 2 MOC, though I suspect they are MedTech and will provide Bison Dvr backfill during HLTA or Op Repl pool capability.

I have been assured by key staff at 1 Fd Amb, that these PRes Bison dvrs will be given the maximum amount of wheel time possible. This includes supporting several crew comd crses, sp to TF 1-08 Lvl 3.5 Trg, and of course all the CMTC work ups & FTX.

I am aware that as a driver, they will not participate in what goes on 'in the back' of the amb. However, one cannot deny that they will recieve a far greater degree of HSS exposure than any other non-clinical position within the TF. They will return to their Res Fd Ambs with this knowledge & experience, and CFMG on the whole will be better for it. I hardly think getting 6 reservists qualified as Bison drivers is considered 'empire building'. We are, however, trying to add another dimension of experience to our Res Fd Ambs which I believe is lacking.

2) I have no idea who will be crew commanding.  Certainly not reserve Medics I am sure. 

Correct, it will be RegF MedTechs.

3) They are trained ambulance drivers.  One is an MSE Op.  The other 2 are Medics who lack PCP training as the system is not yet in place yet for large numbers of Res Medics to take the PCP training.  I believe in all of the Medical Reserve their are 4-6 members who will get this training this year.

The plan is to have all 6 PRes as the TF Bison drivers. Between now and the execution is some 13 months, so I am almost certain there will be some changes to follow.

4) They are being put on Class B contracts vice class C, as if they do not pass muster they will be RTU.  I am sure the people that make these decisions will not send people over to do the job unless they can do it right.  If they can't cut it, send them back to unit rather than endanger anyone. I wouldn't want anything else.

Correct. Just to amplify, the 'passing muster' is applicable to all TF 1-08 HSS soldiers, not just PRes. There will be one standard.

5) They are starting this training In January of 2007.  This is a full year of driving and preparing to do the job.  Not bad at all in my books, but I could be wrong.

I too believe that one year of solid driver training, plus the whole CMTC environment will be enough for the HSS TF Comd to make a successful Opred declaration wrt PRes Bison dvrs. I'm basing that on my previous experiences in a mechanized Regt and my assurances from the PRes Fd Amb staff that the soldiers they have selected will be successful. I also have every confidence in our Med Tech Crew comds that any driver issues will be identified and solved before deployment.

 

[Gunner98]

Just because CF H Svcs Gp HQ has said this is a good idea, that does mean that the Task Force Comd or HSS Coy Comd will concur when the wheels hit the road in 'Gstan. 

These pers have a long road ahead of them once they are selected for the taskings and I wish them good luck in making it to departure date.  I am sure they are up to the challenge and I wish them well.

 

[GINge!]

Provided all gateway trg is successful...and the HSTF Comd approves, they will be going to war as Bison Amb drivers.

As stated. Though if he or she does not approve, finding new Amb drivers after TOCA will be an interesting prospect.

 

[medaid]

I just want to say that I wish my troops well. They are hard working individuals who will do my unit proud, as well as the rest of the HSG in their roles as a ResMed Tech Amb Driver. Now, like many of you said, this may or may not happen. But I think the important part right at this moment, is to wish them luck and all the best during their endeavors in the Sand Box. That's just me.