TF-08 Bison Drivers

[Trinity]

It's two sides of a coin

if employing a medic in a bison amb is to allow them to also treat
casualties...  it's a great idea.

if, as it has been said, they wouldn't be allowed to do anything else
but drive...  then wtf  :

I was a medic for 10 years... and begged for my bison quals because that
was exactly what I wanted to do..  drive and be able to provide extra skills.
I was told I could get a tour for Bosnia if I could drive and have extra usefull skills. 

I'm assuming that is the intent of what they're thinking here.  (seemed like it from the first post)

But as its been stated, if the driver isn't allowed to assist... then this idea is a waste of time.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm still trying to figure out why we're spending money and time to train and send brand new inexperienced CC's and drivers to a theater of war, when we have a large pool of TRAINED & EXPERIENCED, black hat Reservist CC's and drivers, ready and willing to go.

As a matter of fact, the experts in echelon movement are the Armoured Corp. The bison ambs within that org are CC'd by a crewman MCpl and the driver is a crewman Cpl/ Tpr. The Medic sits in the back to give his undivided attention to the casualties. It's tried and proven, there's no need to change it.

 

[Trinity]

Medic do need to be able to drive SOME of their vehicles... maybe not Bison

An ambulance crew LSVW is crewed by 2...  both medics. Someone has to drive  ;D

Both medics work on the casualty and then load up.. and someone drives and someone
tends to the cas.

I'm left to assume they're trying to apply this to the Bison.
But as discussed.. we know the issues about this.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Medic do need to be able to drive SOME of their vehicles... maybe not Bison

An ambulance crew LSVW is crewed by 2...  both medics. Someone has to drive  ;D

Both medics work on the casualty and then load up.. and someone drives and someone
tends to the cas.

I'm left to assume they're trying to apply this to the Bison.
But as discussed.. we know the issues about this.

OK, let's quit being the devil's advocate and move our thinking into THE REAL WORLD! There's won't be any LSVW ambs outside the wire. Let's stick to what we know and are trained to know. Not touchy feely, everyone get along BS.

 

[medic269]

It seems like another one of those situations that looks good on paper but in reality could've been thought through better, like Communism   Looking at it from one end, it's a good way to extend the scope of training and skills for Res medics and get some real experience under their belts, and at the same time puts them to work.  Then the other end is what everyone else has been saying, what happens to the P. Res Combat Arms guys who are now out of a job?  It'll be interesting to see how it pieces together once all said and done.  Anyone know if this is a permanent change or an attempt to phase in more medics on the Bisons?  I can't see when the extra medical skills will come in handy when your pounding of C6 rounds on the move.  God forbid someone else gets hit and you need another helping hand, you won't be able to take a gunner or driver off to help out.

Edited for spelling. 

 

[Trinity]

There is nothing wrong with that example.

It would apply in other situations... otherwise WHY do we train for it.

I was simply pointing out, contrary to what 105 said.. there IS a need
for medics to drive their own vehicles in designated situations.

You call that semantics.. I call that army doctrine.

I've already accepted that bison amb drivers if not allowed to
do anything else but drive.. is a stupid idea. 

 

[George Wallace]

I don't think this could have been said any better.  Each has their job to do, and must be proficient in doing their job.  Although it is great that some Medics are getting on a D&M Course, I do not expect them to be slotted on Tour as Drivers.  That would only come back to bite us in the ass.  A medic cannot drive, and attend to casualties at the same time in combat.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There is nothing wrong with that example.

It would apply in other situations... otherwise WHY do we train for it.

I was simply pointing out, contrary to what 105 said.. there IS a need
for medics to drive their own vehicles in designated situations.

You call that semantics.. I call that army doctrine.

I've already accepted that bison amb drivers if not allowed to
do anything else but drive.. is a stupid idea. 

We're talking about tours here. Not CAC. A place where lives depend on the training, and skills,  of the crews. There is NO place for a Medic in the CC or driver's hatch of a Bison Amb. If they want that training, they can remuster. Give them the training they're required to have in order to save lives. We'll try and ensure they get there and back, with their charges, safely. If you want to talk about LSVW amb crews in a Utopian setting, start another thread. This one pertains to Operations.

 

[Trinity]

Yes...

I'm a former medic...  who agrees with the idea
of a black hat driving a bison amb.

See, there must be a god if even I can see the light ;D

 

[ModlrMike]

If Res medics are in driver positions it is because the Army gave those positions away. Up to TF1-08, they were "Black Hat" positions, but with the tank and other armd tasks, they probably can't do the amb tasking. Ask the army why the medics are driving, don't ask the medics why the army isn't.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If Res medics are in driver positions it is because the Army gave those positions away. Up to TF1-08, they were "Black Hat" positions, but with the tank and other armd tasks, they probably can't do the amb tasking. Ask the army why the medics are driving, don't ask the medics why the army isn't.

This is not necessarily true. People have become very proficient as of late, building empires. As far as the Armoured not being able to fill positions, due to current taskings, there's lots of qualified black hat  Reservists chomping at the bit to go on tour right now.

 

[ModlrMike]

This is not necessarily true. People have become very proficient as of late, building empires. As far as the Armoured not being able to fill positions, due to current taskings, there's lots of qualified black hat  Reservists chomping at the bit to go on tour right now.

While I agree that there are plenty of Res Armd available, what I intended to say was that the Army may have given those positions away. I'm talking strictly about position sourcing, not who is best qual for the job.

 

[Armymedic]

Gee here we go again. Medics driving their own ambs in not a new discussion. The ONLY reason medics don't drive the Bisons overseas now is that there is not enough of the to do the job (not just not enough qualified but not enough of them). The initial tour to Kabul, ISAF Roto 0 even had 6 medics on the TO&E as drivers. 2 Fd Amb did not have enough, so they gave those positions to MSE Ops. Not a single statement above gives me a good reason why a medic can not drive a Bison in Afghanistan.

Being a former black hat myself, I chuckle heartedly every time I hear one saying that the ONLY people who can drive and command an armoured veh is a Armoured soldier. Too bad this is just not true and hasn't been for quite some time.

3 short yrs ago, Reg force QL 3s could not serve overseas. If one did go over, it was the exception. To get these young, keen soldiers some deployment experience, we would qualify a few as drivers and have them fill those roles in the UMS and HSS. Now we have them in the back of each and every Bison Amb in theater.

Every Amb Coy of each Reg F Fd Amb is supposed to have (IIRC) 10 Bisons ambulances, manned completely by Med Techs.

Currently there are no roles for reserve medics in HSS. Learning to drive a Bison amb sounds like a damn fine place for them to be.

ps- I don't go around saying where cbt arms soilders would be better employed (What, not enough CIMIC AND HUMINT jobs to go around?), so why do you all feel so comfortable talking about my capbadges employment?

 

[George Wallace]

Gee here we go again. Medics driving their own ambs in not a new discussion. The ONLY reason medics don't drive the Bisons overseas now is that there is not enough of the to do the job (not just not enough qualified but not enough of them). The initial tour to Kabul, ISAF Roto 0 even had 6 medics on the TO&E as drivers. 2 Fd Amb did not have enough, so they gave those positions to MSE Ops. Not a single statement above gives me a good reason why a medic can not drive a Bison in Afghanistan.

Frankly, that is not what this discussion has turned into.  No one here really gives a damn who drives, as long as it isn't a Medic who should be in the back doing "THEIR JOB". 

I don't care what you do in Petawawa with 'notional casualties' in training with no one shooting at you.  I do care who is driving in Theatre, when there are REAL casualties in the back.

 

[Armymedic]

I am sick and grouchy tonight....so all thoughts going thru my head are nasty. I will reply tomorrow

 

[Gunner98]

Gee here we go again...
Every Amb Coy of each Reg F Fd Amb is supposed to have (IIRC) 10 Bisons ambulances, manned completely by Med Techs...The initial tour to Kabul, ISAF Roto 0 even had 6 medics on the TO&E as drivers. 2 Fd Amb did not have enough, so they gave those positions to MSE Ops.

ps- I don't go around saying where cbt arms soilders (sic) would be better employed (What, not enough CIMIC AND HUMINT jobs to go around?), so why do you all feel so comfortable talking about my capbadges (sic) employment?

St. Mike:

Get off your pedestal, it is a capbadge that I wear as well it is not just yours.  So you think a QL3 Med Tech should be riding in the back of a Bison amb - I agree.  When they start going out on patrols as the only Medic I get concerned, as should you.  The adults don't really understand the risk involved and are not aware that the CF has/had QL3 Med Techs on deployments... until recently anyways.

The Fd Ambs may have 10 Bison in each Amb Coy on the books, but please share with everyone else, how many you do really have, hmm?

The Field Hosp has 5 Bison in the Evac Coy/Pl on the books, as well and it has none in reality.

 

[Armymedic]

Gunner98,
You've been away for so long...I forgot who you were. 

as for my pedestal:

I am sick and grouchy tonight....so all thoughts going thru my head are nasty. I will reply tomorrow

And I will reread the entire thread again when I am not sneezing my brains out.

 

[Gunner98]

St. Mike,

Not away, just lurking and smirking.  :

 

[MED_BCMC]

St. Mike:

Get off your pedestal, it is a capbadge that I wear as well it is not just yours.  So you think a QL3 Med Tech should be riding in the back of a Bison amb - I agree.  When they start going out on patrols as the only Medic I get concerned, as should you.  The adults don't really understand the risk involved and are not aware that the CF has/had QL3 Med Techs on deployments... until recently anyways.

Ok... I understand the fact that yes, a Medic would be much better employed in the back of the ambulance, but if I can refresh everyone's memories for just a moment, this discussion started with having RESERVE medics taking their bison course. So as much as they would be better employed in the back of the ambulance, RESERVE Medics that haven't taken their PCP cannot serve in the back of the ambulance as they are not qualified.

Frankly, that is not what this discussion has turned into.  No one here really gives a damn who drives, as long as it isn't a Medic who should be in the back doing "THEIR JOB". 

Agreed, but for the member to be able to do "THEIR JOB", they must be qualified.

Edited for grammar.

 

[geo]

Med BMCM... as you stated, Res Medics who do not have their PCP can't work in the back....
Can you please extrapolate as to why, in pre-predeployment trg, same said medics can't get their qualification on the Reg force's nickle?
Can't the PCP be broken down into modules to make em shorter but the sum of all being equal to the whole.

The same way as I can use an untrained soldier in a GD position, I have no problem employing em in "other" tasks if I am in deep need and there is no one else but, would think that training em up to PCP standard would be a better alternative.

:warstory: Just my view from the trenches.  :warstory: