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Tanker War 2.0

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7151697/Pentagon-reveals-color-pictures-says-PROVES-Iran-attacked-tankers-Gulf.html?fbclid=IwAR3nqT9xMOfBKxJl4nSOba78RqIY92YwWG7zZRCKbGWvKmI0AgNip-vwvAw
 
Colin P said:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7151697/Pentagon-reveals-color-pictures-says-PROVES-Iran-attacked-tankers-Gulf.html?fbclid=IwAR3nqT9xMOfBKxJl4nSOba78RqIY92YwWG7zZRCKbGWvKmI0AgNip-vwvAw



Among the pictures is one showing what is said to be the remnants of the removed limpet mine and another one which shows what the military say is a handprint left by one of the Revolutionary Guards

I'm sure they'll also find a passport from another revolutionary guard member that's dropped  in the water  :nod:
 
I am calling this thread the Pretzel Thread because everyone is twisting themselves every which way to deny Iran and its history of terror. The evidence speaks for itself sorry.
 
tomahawk6 said:
I am calling this thread the Pretzel Thread because everyone is twisting themselves every which way to deny Iran and its history of terror. The evidence speaks for itself sorry.

I'm not denying that Iran would attack a freighter.  I do think, however, that attacking a Japanese-flagged one around the same time as hosting their PM and them being one of the few buyers of Iran's oil sounds a little dumb. 
 
tomahawk6 said:
I am calling this thread the Pretzel Thread because everyone is twisting themselves every which way to deny Iran and its history of terror. The evidence speaks for itself sorry.

Show me one person denying Iran’s history of terror. Go ahead.

While a I wait for that- what you’re seeing here isn’t denial of history, it’s reasonable skepticism as to what is going on now, and more particularly who is behind it and why. This is a part of the world rife with internal and external conflicts, rivalries, and hatreds. It’s a part of the world which is, simply, a mess; relations and actions there take place with a chronic deficit of good faith, and there isn’t a country (or major interest) in the region that consistently operates in good faith and guilelessly, America included.

Iran is not a monolithic regime. It has factions and internal power struggles within the political and military structure. It is absolutely very possible that one of these factions, with or without the knowledge of the political leadership, carried out these attacks. I’d say it’s more likely that than something else. But it’s by no means a certainty.

What is very unclear in any of this is motive. Cui Bono? Who in Iran (or Saudi, or Qatar, or the US, etc) would stand to gain from a demonstration of the ability to smoke a couple tankers? There isn’t a clear answer to this. An attack was actually carried out on two tankers. That’s hugely provocative and highly risky.

What we cannot do is just write it off as ‘stupid’, because to whoever carried it out, it made sense to do. It was a rational act inasmuch as it serves (or is believed to serve) the strategy of whoever is guilty.

So, why? And from there, who? And now what?
 
tomahawk6 said:
I am calling this thread the Pretzel Thread
Well then, I'll call this the 'Boy Who Cried Wolf' thread.  While previous governments would  lie in singular instances to garner international community buy-in for some endeavour (Maddox/Vietnam, WMD/Iraq),  you now have an administration with a virtually unbroken track record of compulsive lying, butt-hurt because no one believes them.
 
Dimsum said:
... I do think, however, that the Iranian government ordering/sanctioning attacking a Japanese-flagged one around the same time as hosting their PM and them being one of the few buyers of Iran's oil sounds a little dumb.
Agree with this take from Dimsum & others - it sometimes only takes a few idiots in any group to :stirpot: if they don't like what the group is doing.
 
milnews.ca said:
Agree with this take from Dimsum & others - it sometimes only takes a few idiots in any group to :stirpot: if they don't like what the group is doing.

Just how great is the disconnect in ideology, authority, and chain of command between the Republican Guard and the regular armed forces? As I understand it, both the Republican Guard and the regular military have chain of command that end with the Ayatollah.

Could it be that the Ayatollah and the President/Government don't see eye to eye, and the Ayatollah is using the Republican Guard as his own private military to act on policies that perhaps the national legislature and government do not agree with?
 
I think I found the answer to my question:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iran-has-two-naval-forces-with-separate-missions-and-commands-this-is-why/2019/06/14/ea3704a8-8ead-11e9-b08e-cfd89bd36d4e_story.html?fbclid=IwAR3068ELTZBp3Fn3hqLI8F_uAWMz6L0x2-QcIuNdTc_IXi-Kg4yjjj9f0sk&utm_term=.6ff285dcb653

Iran’s naval forces have a split personality. There is the regular navy with conscripts and career officers with a chain of command to the defense minister and others in government.

And then there are the more elite seagoing divisions run by the Revolutionary Guard, whose commanders answer directly to the nation’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Who is in charge?

Revolutionary Guard forces are under the direct control of Khamenei and his inner circle, who also oversee other key parts of the government, including the intelligence services.

The regular navy is also nominally under the supreme leader, who has the final word in all important military decisions. But the navy’s regular operations fall under the defense ministry and the elected leadership led by Iran’s president and parliament.
 
The headline of this piece, which was written a few days ago before the escalation of the "evidence", is perhaps the most succinct explanation of this "he said, he said" situation.  Who could imagine that credibility is currency in the conduct of international diplomacy and credibility is lacking in both parties to this squabble.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-iran-bolton-oil-tankers-persian-gulf-lies-and-war-fears
Gulf Tanker Whodunit: Trump’s a Liar. So Are the Mullahs.

Who benefits from the attack on two fuel tankers in the Persian Gulf? Trump and Iran blame each other—but for the public, the truth is harder to find.

Christopher Dickey World News Editor  Updated 06.14.19 4:56PM ET / Published 06.14.19 12:52PM ET

PARIS—Who was it who blasted two tankers in the Persian Gulf on Thursday? Whodunit?

The Trump administration says it must have been the Iranians. Trump told Fox & Friends on Friday the attack has “got Iran written all over it.” And Iran says it must have been somebody else. And because both sides have such long records of deceit and, really, no regard for the truth, we the public and the press find ourselves sliding toward war with no firm grip on the facts.

Gosh, that feels familiar: a plunge into “unknown unknowns.” But the information situation is much worse today than when Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld uttered that delphic phrase amid the vanguard of lies that preceded the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Now, after so many thousands of blatant falsehoods by the current president of the United States, it’s almost impossible to believe anything he says or, indeed, to know what he actually believes himself. For every prevarication there are countless equivocations, the favorites being “could be” and “who knows?”

So how do we begin to parse what really happened?

Many would suggest we start with the question of motive. But the doorway to madness in the Middle East is marked with a sign that reads: “Ask yourself, who benefits from the crime?” Or, more legalistically speaking, cui bono? And in a world of untrue facts, which the Middle East has been since Biblical times, “who benefits” is propounded as if it were definitive proof of guilt or innocence, depending on your ideological inclination.

Cui bono? My enemy, of course. Quod erat demonstratum.

As The Daily Beast’s Adam Rawnsley wrote in his well-reported piece about the latest tanker incident, Iran has an obvious motive: pushing back against the "maximum pressure" campaign the Trump administration has imposed on its economy. And Iran has the means, including its version of the U.S. Navy’s SEALs, to place the sort of limpet mines that appear to have been used in the attacks.

Iran is also good at playing the classic covert action game of "You know I did it, but you can't prove it." And whoever carried out the pinprick attacks on four tankers near the United Arab Emirates last month, or the more dramatic hits on the tankers off the Iranian coast this week, would seem to be ratcheting up the level of violence to gauge reaction, looking for the red lines. That would be typical of Iran as well.

So far, by targeting ships carrying petrochemical products from Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and avoiding loss of life, whoever is doing this has sent some significant messages: the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz and the Sea of Oman are not secure. Oil prices jumped dramatically and insurance rates for Gulf shipping are going up as well. Escalation could be around the corner. The world is wringing its hands over the prospect of war.

But apart from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo's warning against attacks on American personnel and installations, no red lines have been drawn, much less crossed. When Pompeo accused Iran of carrying out the attacks on tankers, he announced the response would be continued economic pressure and stepped-up diplomatic action.

The problem for Donald Trump is that his "maximum pressure" campaign has left him, in fact, with little room to maneuver on the economic front. When your pedal's to the metal, you can't push it further down. And Trump's eccentric, insulting truculence has made it hard for Pompeo to pull together a strong diplomatic effort, even among traditional allies.

Pompeo vowed to take the matter before the United Nations Security Council, but two of the five permanent members, China and Russia, have no reason at all to help the U.S. policy toward Iran.  The latter is under U.S. sanctions, the former facing prohibitive U.S. tariffs. They have every incentive to work with Tehran, not against it, in efforts to defeat the weaponized American dollar—which is, in fact, Trump's weapon of choice.

The core assumption of the cui bono crowd is that Trump wants a war with Iran, just as George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the infamous "neocons" wanted war with Iraq in 2003. Another common reference is to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, exaggerated and falsified in 1964 to open the way for massive U.S. troop deployments to Vietnam.

Reasoning by analogy, a common refrain is that the tanker attacks last month and this week may be, as the Institute for Public Accuracy put it, “Persian Gulf of Tonkin.” They supposedly were “false flag” operations conducted by Iran’s enemies but made to look like Iranian operations.

Certainly that is the line taken by Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif, noting the irony of hits on tankers carrying naptha and methanol to Japan just as Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe was visiting Tehran. “Suspicious doesn’t begin to describe what likely transpired this morning,” Zarif tweeted Thursday.

But does Trump want war with Iran? There’s no question Israel’s belligerent Benjamin Netanyahu and Saudi Arabia’s blood-soaked Mohammed bin Salman, both of them Trump buddies, would like to see the U.S. beat the hell out of the mullahs. They’re ready to fight to the last American. And National Security Advisor John Bolton seems about as hysterically belligerent as Henery Hawk in the old Looney Toons cartoons. But he is also a skilled backroom warmonger, playing a game with sanctions and waivers on Iranian trade calculated to dispirit and infuriate the Tehran regime—perhaps provoking it to cross a fatal red line.

Trump, on the other hand, likes to talk tough, as The Washington Post’s David Ignatius pointed out recently, but that doesn’t mean he wants to get into a shooting war of any kind. His entire focus is on the 2020 elections, and he knows his base likes the fiery rhetoric, as long as nobody is firing back at American soldiers on the ground.

Is there a way out of a wider confrontation and conflagration? For the moment, Trump is saying he wants to talk and Iran’s leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is saying that’s not going to happen.

Will that remain the case? If so, then the Bibis, Bin Salmans, and Boltons may be able to get the war they seem to want. But before that happens, it will be easier to understand what’s going on if one puts aside cui bono and false flag arguments, and focuses instead on the game of covert and overt brinksmanship.

Iran’s pretty good at it. Trump? We’ll see.
 
Journeyman said:
Well then, I'll call this the 'Boy Who Cried Wolf' thread.  While previous governments would  lie in singular instances to garner international community buy-in for some endeavour (Maddox/Vietnam, WMD/Iraq),  you now have an administration with a virtually unbroken track record of compulsive lying, butt-hurt because no one believes them.

Actually the US was dragged reluctantly by the French into Vietnam. You want to blame anyone for Vietnam, blame the French.
 
Colin P said:
Actually the US was dragged reluctantly by the French into Vietnam. You want to blame anyone for Vietnam, blame the French.

I blame Hitler. If he hadn’t slapped the French around so easily in 1940, the Japanese might have hesitated in occupying Indochina. The subsequent Japanese surrender, aided by American support and inspiration to Ho Chi Min in WW2, that sped the process up.
 
tomahawk6 said:
I suppose Quebeckers  might object ? ;D
When it comes to the Metropolitan French, depends on the Quebecker ...
 
The Iranians have shot down a Global Hawk drone. USAF F15's have arrived in theater but I doubt they would be used should retaliation is ordered. Much easier to use ship launched missiles without risking crews.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-navy-drone-shot-down-by-iranian-missile-over-strait-of-hormuz-source

https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-squadron-f15e-fighters-arrive-uae-iran-tensions
 
Starting picking off AD systems as they light up. It's not like Iran has a huge number and they have a lot of territory to defend.
 
Does anybody else feel like this entire affair isn't getting as much attention as it probably should considering the size of quagmire that could (will) result if they actually start shooting at each other? I mean really shooting at each other?

 
I can't weigh in on who may have done it, but the evidence the US governement has made public is very suspect.
The images of the mine on the side of the ship show two targeted locations well above the waterline which would have had to be attached by small craft alongside the ship, the video indicates they did it in broad daylight without any care of concealment. However, the witness accounts found in the media don't mention any fast boats and in fact stated it was a projectile.
One of the pictures of the blast damage shows the main hole and several other projectile holes around the central blast hole.  I'm no combat engineer but to me it could indicate that the hull was damaged by multiple projectiles in a relatively small area which would mean the explosive detonated away from the hull and several pieces of the projectile struck the ship to start the fire.  The black and white video the US released shows a fastboat crew removing the item from the hull. The shadows on the deck of the tanker indicate it's daylight and no lighting change is visible throughout the video to indicate a fire is burning next to the craft. Additional photos released by the US show the crew of the alledged Iranian vessel in daylight, staring up at the aircraft taking the photo. This is not the behaviour i would associate with a secret mission by operators who want to remain unidentified and conceal their motives.
The evidence laid out by the US government does not match the version of events they're using to justify the military buildup.  I could be completely out to lunch too, and i'm sure someone will put me in my place in a minute...
 
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