Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle - RG-31, LAV Coyote, and (partial) G-Wagon Replacement

[BDTyre]

I've done patrols in the things; it's basically immobilized by a speedbump. Over the course of several months the act of going over speedbumps was enough to shake whole sections of the vehicle loose. I remember one vehicle in our camp had the fuel tank held on with cargo straps. It's astounding how bad it is off road.

Riding in the back of an MSVS on a hole-riddled training area road is more smooth than being in the back of a Cougar.

Within the city, because of it's adversity to speedbumps, short trips would triple in length if we included Cougars in our patrols.

The same was true of the Nyalas. If we had one at the lead, it would force everyone to keep it slow; if we had one at the rear, the next vehicle up would often call up that the rear vehicle was following behind. 

As lead vehicle, we hit an unseen bump in a Nyala at speed - the whole read end lifted off the ground and slammed down with such force that the convoy commander at first though it was a contact.

 

[AutoEngineer]

I believe that both the Cougar and Nyala vehicles currently in service employ a solid axle/leaf spring suspension system.  Both of the vehicles have available upgrades to include independent suspensions which improve the ride quality and off road mobility of the platform and the details are easily found on the internet.  Cost to retrofit is the significant downside to the upgrades, but it would improve the noted Cougar/Nyala ride quality and off road issues on the forum.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The RG31 is an APC designed to be driven on roads or hard pack flat surfaces. They're not designed to keep up to LAV3's off road-which is why so many of them got busted up in Afghanistan. 

Agree about the speed bumps. We had some special drivers who despite having driven the same road twice a day for 3 months would forget where the speed bumps are, hammer over them, and either screw up the vehicle or bang around the people inside. Or both.

At the end of the day it's a patrol vehicle not a fighting vehicle or convoy escort vehicle. It's primary job is to protect it's occupants from mines bullets and the odd zerg.

 

[Zatonskikh]

Oshkosh Defense has unveiled the prototype for Canadas TAPV program, here is the article:

it is by: Noam Eshel
February 20, 2011 16:03


Oshkosh Defense unveiled its prototype for Canada's Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) program, as well as the company's plans to work with its subsidiary, London Machinery, Inc. (LMI), to leverage that company's new facility in London, Ontario, in pursuit of Canadian Department of National Defence (DND) vehicle programs.

Oshkosh Defense and General Dynamics Land Systems-Canada teamed for the TAPV program, which will replace the 4×4 RG-31 mine protected Armoured Patrol Vehicle (APV) and the Light Armored Vehicle LAV-2 6×6 Coyote reconnaissance vehicle.

The two companies also are teamed up for the MSVS program, which will replace the Medium Logistics Vehicles, Wheeled (MLVW) fleet. This new fleet will be used by the Regular Forces and the Canadian Army Reserves in a wide range of roles – from support during domestic emergencies, to deployed operations.

Oshkosh will serve as the prime contractor for both programs. The company plans to leverage proven vehicle platforms and advanced technologies for proposal submissions, including the MRAP All-Terrain Vehicle (M-ATV) and the Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement (MTVR).

Here is a link to the aticle: http://defense-update.com/20110220_oshkosh-tapv.html

 

[Zatonskikh]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/104692/post-1117736.html#msg1117736
Check this out, TAPV really doesnt seem so bad, although the CF might not be using it in its proper role  like they tend to do.
:deadhorse:

 

[BDTyre]

I wonder if Oshkosh addressed any of the issues I'd heard of with the American M-ATV. Initial reports were that the doors either blew off too easily, leaving the crew exposed after a hit, or not at all, leaving them trapped.

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... via a fresh, new Backgrounder (also attached in case link doesn't work):

The Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle (TAPV) is a wheeled combat vehicle that can fulfill a variety of roles on the battlefield, such as reconnaissance and surveillance, security, command and control, cargo and armoured personnel carrier. The TAPV will provide a very high degree of protection to the crew while remaining highly mobile. The TAPV is designed to tackle tough terrain, providing troops with a cross-country capability, and a greater flexibility in choosing routes.

The TAPV will replace the Armoured Patrol Vehicle (RG-31), the Coyote reconnaissance vehicle (LAV 2) and will complement the Light Utility Vehicle Wheeled (G-Wagon).

There will be two variants of vehicles procured under this project. The first is the reconnaissance (recce) variant, which will replace the Coyote reconnaissance vehicle. The recce variant will have a crew of three and seating for an additional equipped passenger. The second variant, the general utility vehicle, will have a crew of three and seating for an additional three equipped passengers.  Both vehicles will be equipped with a Remote Weapon Station.

The TAPV project will procure 500 vehicles with an option for an additional 100. Specifically, the Canadian Forces will acquire up to 197 of the recce variant and up to 307 of the general utility variant. Deliveries will begin in 2014 and initial operational capability is expected that year.

The final Request for Proposals was released to the seven pre-qualified bidders on March 15, 2011.  Bid closure was August 29, 2011, and four bids were received.  Evaluation, including physical testing at Aberdeen Test Centre, started September 6, 2011.

The Government of Canada’s Industrial and Regional Benefits policy applies to this procurement, which means the winning company must generate economic activity in Canada, dollar for dollar equal to the contract value.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Unlike the other vehicles in the Family of Land Combat Vehicles, the CCV is not replacing a vehicle in the current Canadian Forces fleet.

Serious question, so other than Coyote, what is TAPV replacing?  We have (or had) ~200 Coyotes, still have the majority of LAVs, and now ~100 CCV.  So 400 TAPVs replacing 200 Coyotes?  Or are TAPV also supposed to fill a G-Wagon role?

 

[R031button]

TAPV will also replace the RG 31, which has taken on roles previously filled by G Wagons

 

[GnyHwy]

Another way to look at it is, the Coyotes were only used by Armd Recce for "Bde Recce" (yeah I know they were cut down to the Cbt Tms).  The TAPV will likely be sent out as a recce vehicle for many other units, as well as the Armd ones.

 

[ArmyRick]

I am not a Arm Recce dude, so bear with me. Can TAPV also be part of Force Protection role as well? Or do we stick to LAV with RWS?

 

[GnyHwy]

I am not a Arm Recce dude, so bear with me. Can TAPV also be part of Force Protection role as well? Or do we stick to LAV with RWS?

I believe that is the intent.  They will have decent protection, and some sort of firepower, whether it be a .50, and/or 40mm.  Here is a recent link I just found that talks about all the projects and variants, with links to the contenders. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Canada-Looks-to-Upgrade-Its-Armor-in-Afghanistan-05190/#tactical-armored-patrol-vehicle

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bumped with CBC speculation about announcement today:

Two federal cabinet ministers will be at CFB Gagetown on Friday afternoon for an announcement related to new military equipment.

Fisheries Minister Keith Ashfield, the Conservative MP for Fredericton, and Julian Fantino, the associate minister of national defence, will be at the New Brunswick military base.

The two are making an announcement related to new equipment for the Canadian Forces.

They are expected to award a contract to replace the army's fleet of armoured patrol vehicles.

The federal government says jobs will be created across Canada for skilled workers to build the patrol vehicles.

Dieppe's Malley Industries partnered with a U.S. firm to bid on a $1-billion contract to build 750 armoured military vehicles for the Department of National Defence.

The company said winning that contract would mean 120 new jobs and as many as 500 others through spinoff work.

A DND Info-machine media advisory says an announcement by Canada's defence acquisition czar is set for later today in Gagetown.

 

[Kirkhill]

Malley Industries TAPV?

That would seem to be two to Navistar.  (TAPV and MSVS-MilCOTS).

Got me to wondering about the trifecta and whether or not they could secure that based on a commonish mechanical package.

But here is the Navistar entry for the MSVS-SMP competition:

May 7/12: Navistar on SMP. Discussions with Navistar provide an MSVS SMP update. Overall, the firm has been working toward MSVS bids of various types for about 6.5 years. That certainly adds a lot of expense for bidders, which must be recovered somehow.

Their alliance with the Czech Republic’s Tatra will offer the ATX8 8×8 heavy truck, powered by Navistar’s MaxxForce D 12.4 engine and Allison 4500SP transmission. There had been some thought given to offering the 6×6 ATX6, if Canada wanted a split buy of up-armored vs. unarmored vehicles. Since the requirements are that every vehicle must be able to take additional armor, and that the same vehicle must be used for both standard cargo and specialty load handling variants, the ATX8 is their offering. The truck includes the Tatra Tactical Chassis Technology suspension system, whose central backbone tube houses driveline components, and provides an anchor for independently driven half-axles. The independent suspension at each wheel position is air spring, and leaf springs can be added if exceptionally high payloads are required. Maximum payload is 21.1 tonnes/ 23.25 tons.

Navistar representatives told DID that they’re seeing very similar specifications in other competitions around the world, and they expect to bid slight variants of their Canadian SMP offering in a number of countries.

Tatra ATX6
Tatra ATX8

Anyone care to weigh in on whether or not the mechanics of these three vehicles (TAPV, MSVS-MilCOTS, MSVS-SMP - Timberwolf, Navistar 6000, Tatra ATX6-8) are sufficiently close as to be considered a logistically common family?

 

[PuckChaser]

They're logistically common that everyone is going to need an air brakes course to drive anything bigger than a GWagon soon.

 

[Kirkhill]

Malley Industries TAPV?

That would seem to be two to Navistar.  (TAPV and MSVS-MilCOTS).

Got me to wondering about the trifecta and whether or not they could secure that based on a commonish mechanical package.

But here is the Navistar entry for the MSVS-SMP competition:

Tatra ATX6
Tatra ATX8

Anyone care to weigh in on whether or not the mechanics of these three vehicles (TAPV, MSVS-MilCOTS, MSVS-SMP - Timberwolf, Navistar 6000, Tatra ATX6-8) are sufficiently close as to be considered a logistically common family?

Disregard all previous.....

Ottawa company lands $1.25M armoured vehicle contract

Textron Systems Canada Inc. will supply Canadian Forces with 500 new vehicles

CBC News

Posted: Jun 8, 2012 8:07 AM ET

Last Updated: Jun 8, 2012 2:21 PM ET

The Timberwolf, the Canadian Forces Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle, that Malley Industries is hoping will be assembled in Dieppe.forceprotection.net

An Ottawa company has landed a $1.25-million contract to replace the army's fleet of armoured patrol vehicles, federal officials announced at a military base in New Brunswick Friday afternoon.

Textron Systems Canada Inc. will supply 500 vehicles to the Canadian Forces, with the option for another 100, said Fisheries Minister Keith Ashfield, the Conservative MP for Fredericton, and Julian Fantino, the associate minister of national defence.

The first tactical vehicles are expected to be delivered in 2014, they told the crowd gathered at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in Oromocto.

The federal government says jobs will be created across Canada for skilled workers to build the patrol vehicles.

Dieppe's Malley Industries was not part of the winning bid.

The company had partnered with a U.S. firm to bid on a $1-billion contract to build 750 armoured military vehicles for the Department of National Defence.

The company said winning that contract would have meant 120 new jobs and as many as 500 others through spinoff work.

Related

Malley Industries fights for defence contract

Textron TAPV

I wonder why CBC raises Malley at all?

Anyway.  Had me fooled.

 

[dapaterson]

CBC would have sent local journalists to cover the story.  New Brunswick journalist would put the New Brunswick angle front and centre.

 

[Kirkhill]

CBC would have sent local journalists to cover the story.  New Brunswick journalist would put the New Brunswick angle front and centre.

Thanks for that DAP.

 

[PuckChaser]

We got a steal of a deal according to CBC: $1.25 million for 500 vehicles? $2500 a piece.  >

 

[The Bread Guy]

And here's the official word from the DND Info-machine:

The Honourable Julian Fantino, Canada’s Associate Minister of National Defence, today welcomed the decision by the Government of Canada that Textron Systems Canada Inc., of Ottawa, Ontario, has been selected to provide the Canadian Army with 500 Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicles (TAPV). This successful awarding of two contracts resulted from a fair, open and transparent competitive process. These contracts will support the Canadian Army by providing them with the new equipment they need, while creating jobs across our country.

“Today’s milestone once again demonstrates our commitment to supporting our brave men and women in uniform, while creating and supporting skilled jobs across Canada,” said the Honourable Julian Fantino, Associate Minister of National Defence. “Our investments in the Canadian Army now will provide our troops with the modern equipment they need to conduct their missions safely and effectively for decades to come.”

The TAPV project is one of four Family of Land Combat (FLCV) projects announced at CFB Gagetown in July 2009. These new vehicles represent an improvement over our Canadian Army’s LAVII (Coyote) and the Armoured Patrol Vehicles (RG-31) with the delivery of a strengthened degree of survivability to its crew.  Once in service, these vehicles will perform a number of critical roles, including reconnaissance and surveillance, command and control, and cargo and armoured personnel carrier.

“Today’s announcement is great news for our soldiers,” said Brigadier-General C.C. Thurrott, Commander of Land Force Atlantic Area (LFAA). “These vehicles will provide the men and women of the Canadian Army with an excellent multi-role combat capability, protecting them from a variety of threats, while enabling them to remain mobile and agile when executing a wide variety of missions.”

Today’s announcement is subject to the Government of Canada’s Industrial Regional Benefits policy, supporting skilled Canadian workers and economic growth.  One hundred per cent of the value of these contracts must be re-invested by Textron Systems Canada Inc. in the Canadian economy – a total of $708.7 million.

This agreement commits the contractor to re-investing at least 25 per cent of the acquisition contract of $603.3 million and 40 per cent of the sustainment contract of $105.4 million in the creation of new skilled work in the manufacture and long-term support of the TAPV in Canada. Total project costs associated with this procurement approved by Treasury Board is $1.25 billion.

“Our government is delivering results on its objectives of giving the Canadian Forces the tools they need, while creating skilled jobs,” said Minister Fantino. “Canada currently has over 60 major procurements subject to our industrial regional benefit policy, with over $22 billion in industrial regional benefit activity underway.”

There are approximately five years of in-service support included in the support contract, with options extend by 20 one-year periods to cover the life expectancy of the vehicle, estimated at 25 years.

First deliveries of the TAPV are expected in 2014. Full Operational Capability is expected in 2016.  Announcements of Canadian companies whose skilled workers are benefitting from additional work created by this important investment in the CF will be forthcoming in due course.