Tactical Airlift - Replace the Herc!

[Kirkhill]

I found this humorous and had to post it.  Although it is about the Predator I think it also speaks to some of the current fuss over the C-130Js.  The  Predator has been a media and military darling for over a decade now.  The same bodies  that are complaining about the C-130J not meeting specifications have JUST now decided that the Predator is suitable for limited deployments but under strict scrutiny.

At the same time the USAF is struggling to find enough functioning C-130s of any generation to keep up with demand seeing as how some of their earlier models are developing cracks and are on flight restrictions.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

I believe there are currently something like 150 to 200 C-130 Js in service.

Predator Reaches Initial Operating Capacity
 
 
(Source: US Air Force; issued March 1, 2005)
 
 
LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. --- One of the most heavily used and valued weapons systems of operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom has reached initial operating capability, Air Combat Command officials here announced March 1. 

The MQ-1 Predator unmanned aerial vehicle was officially declared IOC March 1 by Lt. Gen. William Fraser III, ACC's vice commander. The milestone was reached after the MQ-1 completed eleven requirements including supportability, maintainability and aircraft and parts availability. 

Initially fielded as the RQ-1, an advanced concept technology demonstrator, the Predator was first used in the Balkan theater in the mid-1990s. Over time, the aircraft has undergone various upgrades to improve its combat effectiveness. The MQ-1 version is equipped with advanced sensors and armed with AGM-114 Hellfire missiles. 

The IOC declaration indicates the MQ-1 has completed its testing and achieved predetermined capability and supportability thresholds, and continues on its path to achieving full operational capability, officials said. 

-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

An update on the state of play re C130Es and Js in USAF service.

Also a note regarding two Air Force studies re Mobility generally and Intra-Theatre lift in particular.  They are apparently to be released shortly.  No doubt they will play into Canada's decision-making if they haven't already.

 

[STONEY]

There are a couple of points i thought i'd throw in not that i'm advocating either of them.

1. Why was the A400 designed in the first place. It seems European countries couldn't afford the C17 which they all wanted. The C130J couldn't lift enough, far enough or fast enough to meet their requirements. Voila the A400 which is being designed by Airbus which is hardly a fly by night outfit, and which if you havn't noticed has overtaken Boeing as the largest aircraft maker in the world . They supply a/c to just about every country in the world including Canada so servicing or spares should'nt be an issue.

2. The Casa 135 is being purchased by the US Coast Guard as their new SAR a/c , seems they are happy with its capabilitys.  Alenia maker of C27J is dropping Lockheed as its North American partner and joining with L-3 communications.

Cheers

 

[Good2Golf]

Stoney...interesting questions.   My take (FWIW):

• A400 - originally borne of "let's get together and beat the US at their own game-itis."   That said, however, the C-17 may have turned out to be so expensive that the A400 will really get going and may turn out to be a viable machine...shades of the A380 v. 7E7 / 787 / whatever is Boeing's flavour this week.   I think the Europeans learned a lot after the EFA / Eurofighter / Eurofighter 2000 / Eurofighter When-we-finally-agree-on-things-and-get-it-built...   Looking at the A400 specs...as it moves from "paper/electrons"-mode to rubber on the ramp mode, it could very well be an option.
  
  
• Folks...you might think about getting stock in L-3 Comm...seriously!   While Boeing and Lockheed seem to have been a bit complacent in keeping an eye on the baby barracuda that was swimming around their feet, L-3 has been snapping up every little bit of stuff around the edges of the "Big 2"...WESCAM, Litton and Northrop Grumman Cda are but a few of the examples of recent acquisitions in Canada alone.   What does this mean?   Well, Alenia dropping Lockheed and going with L-3 (which had many of its subsidiaries sub-contracting to Lockheed on the C27J anyway) may actually makethe Spartan an even stronger contender for FWSAR.   Myself...I'm personally mixed on the CASA / Spartan thing...I don't have a strong feeling on them, one way or the other...must be the seized-rotor thing affecting my level of interest...   ;D

2 more ¢

Cheers,
Duey

 

[air533]

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[Cdn Blackshirt]

I personally like the idea of leasing for the simple reason that if we wait to accumulate the cash to go with our standard front-loaded contract, we won't get replacement aircraft until 2015.

I would also consider going that route for COTS Ro-Ro's too....



Matthew.   

 

[Vigilant]

Perhaps we could lease enough C-130J's to replace the C-130E's, and then order the replacement A400M. That way we can get rid of our most maintenance intensive planes while keeping costs down.

With South Africa and the European nations ordering so many, it may not be until 2015 or later that we get first deliveries of the A400M.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Perhaps we could lease enough C-130J's to replace the C-130E's, and then order the replacement A400M. That way we can get rid of our most maintenance intensive planes while keeping costs down.

With South Africa and the European nations ordering so many, it may not be until 2015 or later that we get first deliveries of the A400M.

Also with the Euro plummeting like a stone, it will make the A400M (as well as a lot of other European kit) much more affordable than it was previously.

Other interesting European Kit that jumps to mind based on needs:
Schelde Enforcer Class LPD's
De Zeven Provincien Air Defence Frigates
EH-101 Medium Lift Helicopters
BILL 2 ATGM
Oksoy-class Mine Hunters



M. 

 

[Vigilant]

Also with the Euro plummeting like a stone, it will make the A400M (as well as a lot of other European kit) much more affordable than it was previously.

That's a good point. Perhaps we could lease the UK 130J's for a good price that way as well before going for the A400M.

Although with a lease it wouldn't be as much of an advantage due to exchange rate risk.

 

[KevinB]

Keep in mind we work about 80% of our operations with the US...
  Using style kit makes it a hell of a lot easier to get parts in theatre.

 

[McG]

Forces should replace aging Herc fleet, study says
Better to buy new aircraft than lease, Fraser Institute urges
Kate Gauntlett
Calgary Herald
August 4, 2005

CALGARY - The Canadian Forces desperately needs to replace its aging Hercules fleet so soldiers can be deployed quickly and fulfil Canada's foreign policy objectives, said a study released Wednesday.

The Fraser Institute study comes less than a week after a new team of Canadian soldiers set foot in the perilous Kandahar region of Afghanistan, with hundreds more expected to be deployed there in the coming months.

"If Canada is to have a foreign policy worthy of the name, our Armed Forces require strategic lift," said Barry Cooper, report co-author and director of the Institute's Alberta office. "It (the current situation) is not laughable, it's miserable."

Cooper said the bulk of Canada's CC-130 Hercules fleet is more than 35 years old.

"The Hercules are very robust and can be maintained. But then the issue is the maintenance cost versus buying something that actually works and doesn't have to sit on the ground," Cooper said.

The study rejects lease options and recommends air force needs will best be met by purchasing a mix of C-17 Globemaster III and C-130J Hercules aircraft.

A commitment to replace auxiliary oiler and replenishment ships was also welcomed, but the right mix of ships would depend on the future direction of navy operations, the study said.

Cooper warned that the costly overhaul of transport has to coincide with a boost to troop numbers.

"If you increase the size of the troops without finding a way to get men and women into any theatre then what's the point?" Cooper said, adding he was encouraged by Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier's comments on both issues.

Earlier this year, Hillier outlined a plan to better equip the military, including adding 8,000 soldiers and buying new medium- to heavy-lift helicopters. However, Hillier suggested leasing aircraft as a replacement to the Hercules.

The federal budget promised $12.8 billion in new defence spending over the next five years.

John Thompson, president of the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, said the Canadian Forces would need to replace a huge amount of equipment over the next 10 years.

Possible political reasons not to lease: Canadian jobs lost.

Hercules loss would batter Spar
Specialist in huge military transport fears layoffs if servicing contract awarded elsewhere
Jason Markusoff
The Edmonton Journal
Fri, 22 Jul 05

EDMONTON - Spar Aerospace, one of Edmonton's largest industrial employers, will have to lay off much of its 600-strong workforce if it loses a major contract to repair Canadian military aircraft, its president warned Thursday.

Patrice Pelletier said National Defence is only weeks away from awarding the contract to service and upgrade Canada's fleet of CC-130 Hercules transport planes, used to send troops, gear and foreign aid around the world.

The Spar facilities at the City Centre and International Airports have specialized in work on Hercules craft since their Canadian debut in 1960.

The firm fears another company may win the bid, worth about $200 million.

"It would have tragic and catastrophic consequences," Pelletier said.

"How many jobs will this affect? It's something we don't want to envisage. I think we have a company that can be the partner of choice for the government."

But the company president added that he has "no indication whatsoever, no communication with the government that we will not be selected."

Spar has been lobbying local, federal and even provincial politicians this month to get them to fight on Spar's behalf to keep the engineering and other tech jobs in Edmonton.

In 2003, Ottawa announced it will seek a massive, multi-year contract for a broad management and support program for the aging fleet, which boasts some Hercules that are more than 40 years old.

Problems with the planes have forced the military to routinely rent transport planes from the United States.

Top officials, including new chief of defence staff Gen. Rick Hillier, have insisted the Hercules ought to be replaced.

Spar's parent, New York-based L-3 Communications, has put together a "Team Hercules" bid involving its plants across Canada and other firms like Air Canada Technical Services and Lockheed Martin Canada.

But the Edmonton operation will be the centrepiece, Pelletier said. Spar is one of 12 firms worldwide, and the only one in Canada, now certified as CC-130 Hercules service centres.

Spar services Hercules for New Zealand, Greece and Malaysia, and Pelletier said it would fulfil those contracts with or without the Canada deal.

"They are good, high-paying jobs in the aerospace industry, and it would be devastating to lose the contract," said New Democrat MLA David Eggen, whose Edmonton-Calder riding houses the City Centre plant.

He is worried the jobs might be lost to Halifax, and has sent a letter to Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan, urging her to intervene on Edmonton's behalf.

The Edmonton plants were originally run by Northwest Industries, and subsequently CAE Aviation. Spar took over in 1998.

If the contract falls through, particularly to a company in Quebec or Ontario, the brouhaha may revive old accusations of regional bias. In 1986, under the Mulroney government, Winnipeg's Bristol Aerospace lost a $1.2-billion  CF-18 fighter repair contract to Montreal's Canadair.

Mayor Stephen Mandel, who supports Spar's bid for the CC-130 Hercules contracts, said he has begun working through the deputy prime minister to grab Ottawa's attention.

"It has a very substantial payroll and it's a significant part of our industry," Mandel said Thursday.

Spar is likely best known as the prime contractor for the Canadarm, the country's biggest technological contribution to space travel.

With files from William Lin

 

[Infanteer]

That Fraser Institute article is being discussed here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33215.0.html

 

[Kirkhill]

Anybody care to comment on the claim that in Afghanistan at 125F older model C-130's (E/H) can only lift 2,000 lbs, not 17,000 lbs?  And that the improved J series is still limited to 300% more or 8,000 lbs?

C-130J Super Hercules Demonstrates Transformational Performance and Capability in Southwest Asia
 
 
(Source: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company; issued Sept. 14, 2005)
 
 
WASHINGTON --- Lockheed Martin officials told reporters today at the Air Force Association's 2005 Air & Space Conference and Technology Exposition that the C-130J Super Hercules is outperforming legacy air transport aircraft in combat operations by at least a two-to-one margin and the reliability is the highest of any aircraft in theater. 

"Recent information pertaining to the C-130J's performance in Southwest Asia reveals that two Js are routinely moving the same amount of troops and equipment as three of the older E or H models," said Rob Weiss, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics vice president for Business Development. "This provides the combatant commander with additional resources to employ on other missions and most importantly, reduces risk exposure time for both crews and aircraft." 

According to senior Air Force officials, the C-130J's additional power advantage has become more obvious, especially operating during the hot season in Southwest Asia. With temperatures regularly exceeding 120 degrees Fahrenheit, the older C-130s can be limited to as little as 2,000 pounds of cargo. Operating under the same conditions, Js are sometimes exceeding that load factor by more than 300%. 

"The performance of the C-130J isn't the only advantage over earlier models," said Weiss. "The J's reliability far exceeds not only that of older C-130s, but also of other platforms in theater. Mission capable rates above 92% are the norm for the C-130J, and in some months the rate has even been 100%." 

In addition, some operators are seeing less than two maintenance hours per flight hour, according to reports coming out of the theater. Legacy C-130s typically average around 20 maintenance hours per flight hour. One USAF C-130J flew 21 straight days of delivery operations, returning Code One every day, until being stood down for a routine maintenance check. 

Ground operations are also more efficient in the dusty operations. "Crews can load and unload the C-130J while the engines are still running because the propellers produce no backwash at certain settings," said Weiss. "This feature also contributes to reduced sortie time and risk exposure." 

Many countries are seeing the benefits that the aircraft brings. The Royal Air Force is conducting airdrop missions that were never possible with its older aircraft, Italy is constructing a forward C-130J deployment base in western Afghanistan, and Denmark has just completed its 100th C-130J landing at Kabul. 

"Crews operating the C-130Js in theater are realizing very quickly that the aircraft can transform tactical airlift operations," Weiss concluded. 


Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin employs about 130,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture and integration of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2004 sales of $35.5 billion. 

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

 

[mover1]

Look at your souce that the news is coming off of. Its like having the actors from the movie Stealth whoop it up about how good it is.

2000 lbs. of freight? Depends on the config, passengers, weather and fuel required.

 

[Kirkhill]

Source understood mover1.

Cheers.

 

[McG]

It's official: $4.6-billion to buy new tactical airlift.

Liberals defend $4.6-billion aircraft purchase
By ALLISON DUNFIELD
Tuesday, November 22, 2005 Posted at 2:46 PM EST
Globe and Mail Update
With a report from Canadian Press and Michael Den Tandt

Defence Minister Bill Graham made official Tuesday the announcement that the federal Liberals are spending $4.6-billion to purchase new military transport planes, and then immediately began to defend that decision.

Mr. Graham has been under fire from opposition MPs who insist that the Canadian military intends to bypass competition in order to speed replacement of its dilapidated Hercules transport planes.

The Conservative Party argues that the government is rushing the decision so they can use it as part of the Liberal platform in the coming election campaign.

However, the Defence Minister told a press conference in Ottawa on Tuesday that he had been involved personally in procuring the 16 planes for the past six months.

Both he and Public Works Minister Scott Brison said the plan to replace the military's Hercules aircraft will be fast, open and fair.

"Our department will help ensure that the acquisition of the replacement aircraft is carried out in a fair, open, and transparent process," Mr. Brison said.

He also said the government will assign a "fairness monitor" to oversee the process.

The two ministers say the military's needs â ” not industrial and regional benefits â ” will be the priority.

The Canadian aerospace industry fears that the government's single page of performance-based requirements favours Lockheed Martin's C-130J airplane and eliminates other key competitors.

Government officials say the document is still being drafted.

Mr. Graham said procuring new equipment is "essential" because of the military's commitments over the next six months. The military is preparing for a combat mission to Afghanistan in the new year.

"You will see more significant defence procurements in the near future, but we start today," he said.

Last week, Mr. Graham had declared a $12.2-billion, three-aircraft procurement plan dead, after sharp criticism of the proposed bidding process from sources in the Canadian defence industry.

But over the weekend the Defence Minister revived what the military considers to be the most important part of its plan, a $4.6-billion purchase of 16 transport planes, because he thinks it is both politically feasible and urgently needed, sources say. A formal announcement is expected today.

Vist the Globe & Mail to leave your comments: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051122.wmilit1122/BNStory/National/

 

[Good2Golf]

Good on the TAL boys...the E's are getting ridiculously old.  As much as I'd like to se CH-47s first down the chute, I'd also like to have my but flop around a fresh airframe dropping in and out of theatre!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Kirkhill]

The Canadian aerospace industry fears that the government's single page of performance-based requirements favours Lockheed Martin's C-130J airplane and eliminates other key competitors.

Imagine that.  Buying equipment based on what it can do.  Whodathunkit.