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So if the Sparton is selected, and a dozen or so J Hercs are on the tarmac in Trenton, things will basically wash out even?
Tactical Airlift - Replace the Herc!
- Thread starter a_majoor
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A
aesop081
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Pretty much as the E-models are used pretty much exclusively as fixed-wing SAR platforms anyways. So, IMO, you would see J-models apear in trenton, Spartan ( or whatever) make their way to 442 sqn in Comox ( to replace the buffs) and to Greenwood ( to replace the E-models). 435 sqn here in winnipeg would get J-models.
This is pure speculation of course. Based on a dream i just had ;D
This is pure speculation of course. Based on a dream i just had ;D
A
aesop081
Guest
mo-litia said:aseop - See, I can even agree with you on occassion!
I agree with you that our TacAir needs a massive overhaul; I only hope that the bean counters recognize this as well.
No worries, i try not to let past differences clout my judgement ( doesn't always happen though).
The Herc is a fantastic tac airlifter, the problem is that we have had to use as a defacto strategic airlifter. We will, in the long run, not have improved the situation if a CC-130 replacement is not immediately followed by the arrival in service of a well-and-true strategic airlifter. I would also like to see the CC-130 replacemt hav an AAR refueling probe so that they can AAR from our CC-150 tankers. This would increase the rapidity of deployements by eliminitaing the need for several stops on the way to far-flung locales.
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Aesop
If you get the SAR-FW replacement, and the Gods smiled and also bought or leased a 6-pack of C-17s how many years/hours might you get out of the remaining H models? (Assume that they were restricted to intra-theatre support flights - lets say 3 in the mid-east and 12-15 back here in Canada for domestic and training duties).
Could we get enough years out of them (5, 10?) that we could get the C-17s on line before swapping the Hs for Js?
If you get the SAR-FW replacement, and the Gods smiled and also bought or leased a 6-pack of C-17s how many years/hours might you get out of the remaining H models? (Assume that they were restricted to intra-theatre support flights - lets say 3 in the mid-east and 12-15 back here in Canada for domestic and training duties).
Could we get enough years out of them (5, 10?) that we could get the C-17s on line before swapping the Hs for Js?
A
aesop081
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Well, i'm no expert on aircraft life expectancy but the H-models are long in the tooth as it is so a decision on all this has to be made soon. I can't honestly see them last more than 10 years the way we use them. Like i have said before the E-models should have become pop cans long ago and the H-models are not far behind. If we were to go for C-17s we could concevably have them in-service but since the J-model is already in production , we could have both ( granted that there is only limited funds).
this is what happens when you neglect something for years.
this is what happens when you neglect something for years.
A
aesop081
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What we should have done years ago to the H-models was to stretch them like the RAF did. and invested in a strategic airlifter. This would have vastly expanded our deployement capabilities. I remember trying to fit 2 LSVW's into the back of a CC-130H and i had to take the back step of the ambulance one to have enough room.
I personaly would see the current tac airlift sqns re-equip to the C-130J and stand-up 2 sqns of C-17s (both in Trenton). Passenger and cargo lift could remain with the CC-150, but i would like to see all the polaris being modified for AAR. For that matter, we should also get more of them, capable of AAR, to go with our shiny new airlift fleet. Makes sense to me anyways. The CC-150s are pretty versatile aircrafts so me should make maximum use of them to save some hours on the tac and strategic airlifters.
C-17s are about 225 million dollars each !!
I personaly would see the current tac airlift sqns re-equip to the C-130J and stand-up 2 sqns of C-17s (both in Trenton). Passenger and cargo lift could remain with the CC-150, but i would like to see all the polaris being modified for AAR. For that matter, we should also get more of them, capable of AAR, to go with our shiny new airlift fleet. Makes sense to me anyways. The CC-150s are pretty versatile aircrafts so me should make maximum use of them to save some hours on the tac and strategic airlifters.
C-17s are about 225 million dollars each !!
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Gentlemen,
the a/c indicated by the Majoor is a concept a/c. It is very dangerous to even consider this, although I suspect that it may have been done lighthearted.
A/C are designed from the beginning with specific missions in mind. Hercs are not strategic airlift. They are tactical and the CF has used them to do strategic out of necessity. It is time for the Hercs to be replaced. I agree with the coming decision to replace the SAR Hercs with the Spartan. Do you really need an a/c the size of a Herc to do SAR? No.
I agree that we should maintain a fleet of Hercs, most likely the J model, since we have extensive experience in flying and maintaining them. Thus parts and training would already exist, but would have to be supplemented with upgrading due to the new J model. Extending the fuselage of the Herc will only help with long cargo, not with items that require larger volume, i.e. height restrictions. The E and H models are old and have extensive airframe hours. Lockheed Martin is actually very interested in us since no one else operates older ones. There are certain components that are lifed items, i.e. hours flown, that need to be replaced after certain hours. Just like an engine or tranny in a helo, airframes also reach time limits due to cracks, corrosion, etc.
My understanding is that the Hercs are having their wing boxes replaced at third line at SPAR. This is expensive and time consuming, restricting the availability of the a/c for ops. My recommendation: retire the E's, replace with the Spartan, retire about 10 Hercs immediately, and then phase in the J models for the remaining older Herc models.
Strategic airlift is needed. Look at DART as an example. Look at the LAV or the proposed stryker. I work with Griffons and we have to take the main and tail rotors off, head and mast off, use gross weight tow kit, and then it can barely fit into the Herc. The process of loading a CH146 into a Herc can take the better part of a day. Then it must be unloaded at the destination. With a C17 or Antonov (of which there are dwindling numbers), you can simply fold the blades (using a premium blade fold kit) and roll the helo onto the C17 and then off at the destination. Unfold the blades, do the paperwork, preflight, and you're off. Which one to buy? No brainer, the C17. We have or just had pilots in the States doing trg with them at US units. It is a proven a/c that is built in our backyard. Remember, whenever the Government buys items such as a/c, there must be regional benifits throughout Canada (Treasury Board policy). Boeing, the maker of the C17, has three plants in Canada, Winnipeg, Arnprior (Ont), and another which I cannot remember at this point. Plus, the embarrassment that the government has recently endured due to renting Antonovs only helps. I can dream....
Remember, an a/c is designed for specific missions from the start. Hercs are designed to be tac lift, and C17s are designed for the strategic airlift. I learnt this day one of Aerospace Engineering in university.
Just my two cents if anyone is listening...
the a/c indicated by the Majoor is a concept a/c. It is very dangerous to even consider this, although I suspect that it may have been done lighthearted.
A/C are designed from the beginning with specific missions in mind. Hercs are not strategic airlift. They are tactical and the CF has used them to do strategic out of necessity. It is time for the Hercs to be replaced. I agree with the coming decision to replace the SAR Hercs with the Spartan. Do you really need an a/c the size of a Herc to do SAR? No.
I agree that we should maintain a fleet of Hercs, most likely the J model, since we have extensive experience in flying and maintaining them. Thus parts and training would already exist, but would have to be supplemented with upgrading due to the new J model. Extending the fuselage of the Herc will only help with long cargo, not with items that require larger volume, i.e. height restrictions. The E and H models are old and have extensive airframe hours. Lockheed Martin is actually very interested in us since no one else operates older ones. There are certain components that are lifed items, i.e. hours flown, that need to be replaced after certain hours. Just like an engine or tranny in a helo, airframes also reach time limits due to cracks, corrosion, etc.
My understanding is that the Hercs are having their wing boxes replaced at third line at SPAR. This is expensive and time consuming, restricting the availability of the a/c for ops. My recommendation: retire the E's, replace with the Spartan, retire about 10 Hercs immediately, and then phase in the J models for the remaining older Herc models.
Strategic airlift is needed. Look at DART as an example. Look at the LAV or the proposed stryker. I work with Griffons and we have to take the main and tail rotors off, head and mast off, use gross weight tow kit, and then it can barely fit into the Herc. The process of loading a CH146 into a Herc can take the better part of a day. Then it must be unloaded at the destination. With a C17 or Antonov (of which there are dwindling numbers), you can simply fold the blades (using a premium blade fold kit) and roll the helo onto the C17 and then off at the destination. Unfold the blades, do the paperwork, preflight, and you're off. Which one to buy? No brainer, the C17. We have or just had pilots in the States doing trg with them at US units. It is a proven a/c that is built in our backyard. Remember, whenever the Government buys items such as a/c, there must be regional benifits throughout Canada (Treasury Board policy). Boeing, the maker of the C17, has three plants in Canada, Winnipeg, Arnprior (Ont), and another which I cannot remember at this point. Plus, the embarrassment that the government has recently endured due to renting Antonovs only helps. I can dream....
Remember, an a/c is designed for specific missions from the start. Hercs are designed to be tac lift, and C17s are designed for the strategic airlift. I learnt this day one of Aerospace Engineering in university.
Just my two cents if anyone is listening...
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Have any of you air-force types done the math to figure out how many aircraft we'd need? Assuming the Spartan was bought for the SAR role, how many C-130J-30's would we need to flush out the tac-airlift role?
I agree that a modest amount (4?) of C-17's should be aquired for our strategic needs... and with the airlines in the state they are, couldn't we pick up some surplus A310's or A330's cheap to beef up our AAR/airlift need? Maybe 3 more, brings us up to 8 of them, with all but the VIP one modified for AAR... That seems like a modest but capable and flexible force... nevermind that the Aussies are going ahead with AWACS, AAR, and all sorts of other projects, with a population of 2/3rds of ours... anyone know if they hire Canadian Officers?? LOL
I agree that a modest amount (4?) of C-17's should be aquired for our strategic needs... and with the airlines in the state they are, couldn't we pick up some surplus A310's or A330's cheap to beef up our AAR/airlift need? Maybe 3 more, brings us up to 8 of them, with all but the VIP one modified for AAR... That seems like a modest but capable and flexible force... nevermind that the Aussies are going ahead with AWACS, AAR, and all sorts of other projects, with a population of 2/3rds of ours... anyone know if they hire Canadian Officers?? LOL
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In increasingly large numbers...
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Contact the nearest Australian High Commision for details.
Also, you can go to their Army/Navy/Air Force (depends what interests you) website and get some info, too.
I know several guys who are serving there now- not that I am encouraging anyone to join a foreign military...
Also, you can go to their Army/Navy/Air Force (depends what interests you) website and get some info, too.
I know several guys who are serving there now- not that I am encouraging anyone to join a foreign military...
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Spartans to replace Buffs and SAR E-models seems reasonable.
J's to replace some of the remaining H's seems reasonable.
While everybody would love the C-17 and guys mention the Anotonov about every other post, perhaps we forgot about another maker? Ilushin...
Anybody thought of wet-leasing IL-76's from the Ukraine to trial for a couple of years?
p.s. Don't laugh...the RAF is wet-leasing Mil-17 Hips and flying them with RAF aircrew in Iraq as we speak.
J's to replace some of the remaining H's seems reasonable.
While everybody would love the C-17 and guys mention the Anotonov about every other post, perhaps we forgot about another maker? Ilushin...
Anybody thought of wet-leasing IL-76's from the Ukraine to trial for a couple of years?p.s. Don't laugh...the RAF is wet-leasing Mil-17 Hips and flying them with RAF aircrew in Iraq as we speak.
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DPT, there's a whole discussion on that very subject here. I don't think there's a whole lot of fans of that idea, me included, but you may be able to sway some hearts if you're smooth enough ;D
Welcome to the boards, rotorheads are taking over this place!
Welcome to the boards, rotorheads are taking over this place!
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Sigh....
Now Duey has to weigh in and revitalize that darned IL-76 talk. I tell you, this forum will soon be over-run by rotorheads and us seized wing folk will have to scurry back to cfpilots.ca and talk shop with our own kind.
Welcome to the "other side" Duey, where discussion don't always involve the blue boys...
Z-head
Now Duey has to weigh in and revitalize that darned IL-76 talk. I tell you, this forum will soon be over-run by rotorheads and us seized wing folk will have to scurry back to cfpilots.ca and talk shop with our own kind.
Welcome to the "other side" Duey, where discussion don't always involve the blue boys...
Z-head
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Zoomie said:
Z, the guys in the office were giving me too much heat for "staying in my own little realm (the Lounge)" they physically made me register here. While I would occasionally surf on the old DAD Forums, those closed down recently...so it wasn't until the "relish pile-on the pilot in Rm 207 in the Bradstreet Block in Fort Frontenac happened" that I've returned to my roots! ;D
I plan on spending more time in the other forums here though...pretty much get my fill of light blue in the lounge.
Cheers!
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I think that Canada is waiting to be done with the F18 and Auroras upgrades. Afterward they will have money to look at the C130J, A72 and A400. Don't think the C17 in the running. They would rather rent a big russian transport plane.
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