Tac Vest does not make the grade.
- Thread starter Britney Spears
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KevinB said:
Kevin,
I remember one of the Iraq guys (Matt Fisher) saying how he didn't like the combo frag vest/LBE deal because in an NBC environment you couldn't separate the two to put your fighting order over your suit and keep your frag vest under your suit. Does this make sense?
I don't understand why the military didn't go with a MOLLE system (We instead went for some velcro sticky thing....); I'm playing with some MOLLE gear now and it's definitely the way to go in adaptability.
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Infanteer: HJ went on HLTA and did not email me my UCR's that lazy prick 
I disagree with what Matt said - in a NBC environment I want my vest outside my MOPP gear for two reason 1) If it takes a hit I want it outside my suit (no brainer) 2) It is an exterior garment and likely has been exposed to a greater amount than anythgin else you are wearing.
Weapons and LBE's would have to be decontaminated/exchnaged and I agree that adding PDA is more awkward - but I dont have much hope for myself in a NBCD environment anyway...
okay TACVEST From the Riflemans view point
R:4 mags - where to do the other (min) 6 go?
A
kay lets put them in the #1 (weak side) utility pouch
R:water?
A: - camelback - fine daisy chain it to the TV
R: - whoops no room for the small (butpack system) pack.
A: put it in the #2 utlity pouch - shit no room for anything else.
R: Grenades - shit pouches dont fit
A: Lets use a ultity pouch
R: - whoops cant do that they are already full. :-*
A: Fuck it we really dont need grenades anyway do we :
R
ryo
A:- sorry no room
Less Lethal:
A: - sorry no room -
R: okay lets carry our DD's in a bag on our back : thats a fast way to get at them : :
Map - lets make a pocket under a zipper and in velcro that'l work :rage:
Flashlight - yea lets make a pouch for the shitty Maglight system and ignore the Surefire /Scorpion systems
Shall I go on? I think you get the idea...
Now C9 Gunner
Gee I love these four useless pockets - and okay, I got like 600rds man, where can I put it?
Answer: SIMPLE don't bring anything else but ammo.
Great but these pouches sag and it is nigh impossible to pull them out when couching or doing anything active.
M203 Grenadier
Gunner: Now Where do I put these 40mm grenades
A: well CTS designed these pouches that replace you ultity pouches...
Gunner: Right - you want me to take the storage I have that is not enough already and remove it - good idea...
A: Well you wanted grenades right...
C6 Gunner: WTF - HELLO - Hey you CTS guy - its me the C6 gunner.
A: yes we will get to you, we have a nice pack from London Bridge Trading http://www.londonbridgetrading.com/main.html
C6: Great they discontinued it...?
A: CTS but it looked good...
C6: So now what?
A: Now what what?
I disagree with what Matt said - in a NBC environment I want my vest outside my MOPP gear for two reason 1) If it takes a hit I want it outside my suit (no brainer) 2) It is an exterior garment and likely has been exposed to a greater amount than anythgin else you are wearing.
Weapons and LBE's would have to be decontaminated/exchnaged and I agree that adding PDA is more awkward - but I dont have much hope for myself in a NBCD environment anyway...
okay TACVEST From the Riflemans view point
R:4 mags - where to do the other (min) 6 go?
A
kay lets put them in the #1 (weak side) utility pouchR:water?
A: - camelback - fine daisy chain it to the TV
R: - whoops no room for the small (butpack system) pack.
A: put it in the #2 utlity pouch - shit no room for anything else.
R: Grenades - shit pouches dont fit
A: Lets use a ultity pouch
R: - whoops cant do that they are already full. :-*
A: Fuck it we really dont need grenades anyway do we :
R
ryoA:- sorry no room
Less Lethal:
A: - sorry no room -
R: okay lets carry our DD's in a bag on our back :
thats a fast way to get at them : :Map - lets make a pocket under a zipper and in velcro that'l work :rage:
Flashlight - yea lets make a pouch for the shitty Maglight system and ignore the Surefire /Scorpion systems
Shall I go on? I think you get the idea...
Now C9 Gunner
Gee I love these four useless pockets - and okay, I got like 600rds man, where can I put it?
Answer: SIMPLE don't bring anything else but ammo.
Great but these pouches sag and it is nigh impossible to pull them out when couching or doing anything active.
M203 Grenadier
Gunner: Now Where do I put these 40mm grenades
A: well CTS designed these pouches that replace you ultity pouches...
Gunner: Right - you want me to take the storage I have that is not enough already and remove it - good idea...
A: Well you wanted grenades right...
C6 Gunner: WTF - HELLO - Hey you CTS guy - its me the C6 gunner.
A: yes we will get to you, we have a nice pack from London Bridge Trading http://www.londonbridgetrading.com/main.html
C6: Great they discontinued it...?
A: CTS but it looked good...
C6: So now what?
A: Now what what?
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Hey lookit my very own thread!
KevinB:
This is fun, can I play?
Now C9 Gunner
Gee I love these four useless pockets - and okay, I got like 600rds man, where can I put it?
Answer: You can carry the sect.'s supply of choco bars in those mag pouches. The ammo you hand them off to your buddy the rifleman of course, didn't they teach you anything in basic? Why do you have 3 boxes? You only need 2.
KevinB:
This is fun, can I play?
Now C9 Gunner
Gee I love these four useless pockets - and okay, I got like 600rds man, where can I put it?
Answer: You can carry the sect.'s supply of choco bars in those mag pouches. The ammo you hand them off to your buddy the rifleman of course, didn't they teach you anything in basic? Why do you have 3 boxes? You only need 2.
P
pappy
Guest
hell for a chocolate bar I'll carry a box..... :dontpanic:
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Fact being stranger than fiction - we had a Pl WO (MJP can tell you in who's PL ) that lowered his troops ammo allotment so they could carry their ammo in the TV : - did I mention this was in Afghanistan...
Heaven forbid we submit a UCR lets change our load out
Sorry I forgot the choccy bars. ;D What was I thinking...
) that lowered his troops ammo allotment so they could carry their ammo in the TV : - did I mention this was in Afghanistan...Heaven forbid we submit a UCR lets change our load out
Sorry I forgot the choccy bars. ;D What was I thinking...
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Kevin, real good points. I'm thinking I'll defer to you on this one, it all makes sense.
In your opinion then, is an intergrated frag vest/MOLLE attachment system the ideal set-up for a soldier's fighting order, or is it, like so many other things, dependent on the situation?
In your opinion then, is an intergrated frag vest/MOLLE attachment system the ideal set-up for a soldier's fighting order, or is it, like so many other things, dependent on the situation?
Matt_Fisher
Army.ca Veteran
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KevinB said:
Kevin,
I can see points for both sides in terms of wearing the vest over or under MOPP gear. In my opinion when it comes to decontamination, something like body armor is alot harder to decon, because of the multiple layers of fabric in it. Dunking it in the tank of supertropical bleach solution may get rid of some of the surface contaminants, but what if crap has seeped into the kevlar layers? I'll play on the safe side and wear my stuff underneath.
However you do raise a good point about the MOPP suit losing its integrity if punctured by shrapnel/debris.
I guess the bottom line is the NBC sucks and no matter what you do.
I've got 4 other arguments for keeping separate load-bearing rigs than having your stuff on the body-armor itself
1. Static guard duty in a bunker/tower. You're still required to wear your ballistic vest, but you can reduce the weight by having your lbv within grabbing distance.
2. Cold weather ops. When wearing bulky insulating layers your body armor is often adjusted to the point where gaps in side coverage when the body armor is worn over top. This is the case with the US Interceptor vest, but I'm not certain if the CF vest experiences this problem?
3. Emergency re-roles in the section. It's alot easier to switch rigs than it is to switch body armor in emergencies, such as your C9 gunner going down, etc. If the C9 gunner is 5'9 and 160 lbs, how is his armor with pouches mounted directly on it supposed to fit somebody who's 6'2 and 200 lbs?
4. Non-infantry types. Alot of people such as crewmen, drivers, etc. need to wear ballistic vests when conducting ops, however having the pouches directly attached to the vest will cause alot of snags when trying to conduct their primary combat function.
One of the biggest reasons why you see alot of US soldiers and Marines putting their pouches directly on the Interceptor vest is because the current US tac-vest, the 'Fighting Load Carrier' is not very durable and there is a chronic failure rate with the shoulder straps coming unstitched from the mesh body.
Other than the issue of separate rig vs. integrated body armor load-bearing vest, I agree with your points on the lack of forethought that CTS put into the CF Tac-Vest.
KevinB said:
WTF? ???
And the Platoon Commander, Company Commander and the other WO peers let this donkey do this?
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Alright, I'm going against the grain here.....I was a 203 gunner Roto 0, I had put my gernades as follows (still in the plastic case)
1X grenade left and right gernade pouch chest (tight fit yes, did it work and secure the nades yes)
2X gernades left and right utility pouch gernade pouch ( held the well if a bit of a tight fit, again it worked and I could pull them out pretty fast)
That was a total of 6 203 rounds, we were issued 12 the other 6 were alternately in the boat or on my person with easy access depending on the OP
as for my 5 spare mags they went in my left utility pouch
Water right pouch+2L Camel Back for a total of close to 5L
now I'am not saying it's the best system just that with alittle thought it does work, are there better systems out there damn right there are, should the better vest's have been looked at....yup, were they I don't honestly know.
1X grenade left and right gernade pouch chest (tight fit yes, did it work and secure the nades yes)
2X gernades left and right utility pouch gernade pouch ( held the well if a bit of a tight fit, again it worked and I could pull them out pretty fast)
That was a total of 6 203 rounds, we were issued 12 the other 6 were alternately in the boat or on my person with easy access depending on the OP
as for my 5 spare mags they went in my left utility pouch
Water right pouch+2L Camel Back for a total of close to 5L
now I'am not saying it's the best system just that with alittle thought it does work, are there better systems out there damn right there are, should the better vest's have been looked at....yup, were they I don't honestly know.
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I gave up on the CADPAT issue for and decided to go coyote brown and use CADPAT and OD pouches as cam...
When I was in Ottawa this summer the Hill's RAV's were OD and a few guys told me the wait was bad enough.
Matt - I guess I should have been a bit clearer - I dont think that the MOLLE armour system is the only option but AN option. I dont think that any system will be 100% - and as such we should have trade directed kit - If it were up to me armoured crew wouldl not have to wear armour inside - it slows them down conducting drills and is a general PITA - it would be a users call.
Cold weather ops - opens a whole other bad of worms - my Gen 3 PDA would fit over a combat coat - never tired a parka as I rarely (read never) wear them.
HitorMiss - 6 rounds - I thought we were welfaring it...
When I was in Ottawa this summer the Hill's RAV's were OD and a few guys told me the wait was bad enough.
Matt - I guess I should have been a bit clearer - I dont think that the MOLLE armour system is the only option but AN option. I dont think that any system will be 100% - and as such we should have trade directed kit - If it were up to me armoured crew wouldl not have to wear armour inside - it slows them down conducting drills and is a general PITA - it would be a users call.
Cold weather ops - opens a whole other bad of worms - my Gen 3 PDA would fit over a combat coat - never tired a parka as I rarely (read never) wear them.
HitorMiss - 6 rounds - I thought we were welfaring it...
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Total issue was only 12 rounds per person, 24 in the section.
I carried 6 everywhere on a regular patrol where the boat was nearby, in the event of of extended dismounted patroling or some OP I had all 12.... You wanna hear nuts as good as 203's are I know some section that never even loaded there 5 extra mags just kept them in the boat with the extra ammo. :
I carried 6 everywhere on a regular patrol where the boat was nearby, in the event of of extended dismounted patroling or some OP I had all 12.... You wanna hear nuts as good as 203's are I know some section that never even loaded there 5 extra mags just kept them in the boat with the extra ammo. :
Matt_Fisher
Army.ca Veteran
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KevinB said:
Kevin, thanks for the clarification. On the subject of crewmen not wearing vests, I'll disagree with you there. Vests and ballistic rated CVC Helmets are necessities these days with the enemy's use of IEDs and vehicle ambushes. Several M1 crewmen have been killed and wounded in Iraq because they wore their less ballistically rated Second Chance vests rather than the Interceptor vest with plates. Also, in the event of a vehicle collision/accident, the vests have been shown to reduce blunt trauma injuries associated with doing the rag doll. :tank:
It does slow you down a bit at first, but it's nothing that doesn't get worked out and accomodated for after some experience. What sucks is having to do an LAV Gunnery Skills Test in with your vest, gas mask, gore-tex jacket and pants and rubber gloves to simulate working in a NBC environment. Trying to re-attach the feed chutes is a pain in the *** at the best of times...that ensemble makes it downright hellacious ;D
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Now C9 Gunner
Gee I love these four useless pockets - and okay, I got like 600rds man, where can I put it?
Answer: SIMPLE don't bring anything else but ammo.
Great but these pouches sag and it is nigh impossible to pull them out when couching or doing anything active.
personally I'd debate that. just need to learn to master the art of pull it out of the pouch.
anytime that we were on an patrol or convoy of some sorts. I'd carry the box on the weapon, plus the two boxes in the pouches. sure I had to sacrifice carrying my leather gloves (gasp oh nos!) or my 2quart (junk to begin with, I wear the camelback at all times), and my zap-straps (just attach to the buckles on the vest!). I mean seriously, half the crap we get issued will always be replaced with something. I've stop using my leather gloves a year ago, and barely wear the green liners either.
so far on any patrol that I've had to do on an ex., I threw everything I didn't need (which was damn near everything that's suppose to go into a TV) and carried around the ammo in the pouches.
personally I'm going to figure out a way to attach the old webbing belt onto the vest, and voila! instant place to throw even more crap!
really my only actual complaint with the TV is the fact that there is no waist belt to attach (again, a way to clip the webbing belt on) and be able to carry more crap. so that way a 203'er can carry what they need, same with a c6 & 9 gunner.
I'm bored, and my TV and webbing are right there, I'm going to zap strap it on there right now!
Greg
Gee I love these four useless pockets - and okay, I got like 600rds man, where can I put it?
Answer: SIMPLE don't bring anything else but ammo.
Great but these pouches sag and it is nigh impossible to pull them out when couching or doing anything active.
personally I'd debate that. just need to learn to master the art of pull it out of the pouch.
anytime that we were on an patrol or convoy of some sorts. I'd carry the box on the weapon, plus the two boxes in the pouches. sure I had to sacrifice carrying my leather gloves (gasp oh nos!) or my 2quart (junk to begin with, I wear the camelback at all times), and my zap-straps (just attach to the buckles on the vest!). I mean seriously, half the crap we get issued will always be replaced with something. I've stop using my leather gloves a year ago, and barely wear the green liners either.
so far on any patrol that I've had to do on an ex., I threw everything I didn't need (which was damn near everything that's suppose to go into a TV) and carried around the ammo in the pouches.
personally I'm going to figure out a way to attach the old webbing belt onto the vest, and voila! instant place to throw even more crap!
really my only actual complaint with the TV is the fact that there is no waist belt to attach (again, a way to clip the webbing belt on) and be able to carry more crap. so that way a 203'er can carry what they need, same with a c6 & 9 gunner.
I'm bored, and my TV and webbing are right there, I'm going to zap strap it on there right now!
Greg
Matt_Fisher
Army.ca Veteran
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Yeoman said:
I want to see a pic of this abomination abortion ;D
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If you think that's an abortion, on more than one occasion I've witnessed guys attach the chest panels of the US issued LBV-88 to their 82ptn webbing to create a "vest" of sorts. SEALS action gear in Calgary even sells a version in CADPAT with wide belt loops to fit the 82 ptn belt (although it has since been discontinued according to their website) specifically for this purpose. I can't comment on the effectiveness of this setup, but I've never seen anyone use it beyond the first excercise.
Matt_Fisher
Army.ca Veteran
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With the old PASGT vest, the LBV-88 worked pretty well.
I'd imagine that there was significant 'flop' with the mutant LBV-88/82 pattern setup as the chest panel was free floating and not attached to anything in the back to stabilize it.
It's interesting to see a return, somewhat, to a conventional H-Harness web setup incorporating MOLLE/PALS modularity with Eagle's MLCS Harness and Blackhawk's copy as the STRIKE Harness http://www.lightfighter.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=568
For those that aren't fans of vests, this hybrid rig may be the answer?
I'd imagine that there was significant 'flop' with the mutant LBV-88/82 pattern setup as the chest panel was free floating and not attached to anything in the back to stabilize it.
It's interesting to see a return, somewhat, to a conventional H-Harness web setup incorporating MOLLE/PALS modularity with Eagle's MLCS Harness and Blackhawk's copy as the STRIKE Harness http://www.lightfighter.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=568
For those that aren't fans of vests, this hybrid rig may be the answer?
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I have seen some guys wearing their TV's with 2 c9 pouches and 2 canteen pouches.
Install the normal c9 and canteen pouches sideways so the flaps face outwards. If you look at the bottom of the vest you should see strap loops coming off the bottom of those pouches. Now simply attach you remaining 2 pouches to the bottoms of the first 2 using the straps attached.
The only downside is doing this removes the NBC carrying capability of the TV.
Install the normal c9 and canteen pouches sideways so the flaps face outwards. If you look at the bottom of the vest you should see strap loops coming off the bottom of those pouches. Now simply attach you remaining 2 pouches to the bottoms of the first 2 using the straps attached.
The only downside is doing this removes the NBC carrying capability of the TV.
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