Tac Vest does not make the grade.

[daftandbarmy]

Tacvest, helmet and body armour and Arctic Warfare training: Has anyone used this kit in the arctic and if so, how did it work out? I've done the helmet and tac vest thing in the arctic before but have never worn body armour. I couldn't imagine what that would be like at 30 below while sweating like a very sweaty thing towing a pulk and hauling a ruck.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Never done Winter Warfare with Flak Jackets..... that would be interesting.

 

[RHFC_piper]

Tacvest, helmet and body armour and Arctic Warfare training: Has anyone used this kit in the arctic and if so, how did it work out? I've done the helmet and tac vest thing in the arctic before but have never worn body armour. I couldn't imagine what that would be like at 30 below while sweating like a very sweaty thing towing a pulk and hauling a ruck.

I can't comment on the "Arctic" aspect, but I've done winter warfare in full FFO... as did anyone else on TF3-06... ie. Company attack up a huge-ass hill in the middle of nowhere, Petawawa...  Anyone who was there would surely remember this event; most of the company ended up upside down, flapping around like a fish out of water, burried in snow.  And each Company did this (at least Bravo and Charles).  I'm not sure if it was -30, but it was damn cold and it was a long walk in snow shoes.

I think I can adequately sum it up in two words; It sucked.  But, that's all part of the game... good times.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I did an ex in Norway with helmet and body armour in 2005.  I personally found that the most effective way to work the issue of body armour was to wear the vest directly over my thermal underwear.  I then put my fleece jacket and Gore-Tex shell over top of that.  With all the extra girth from your warming layers, you might find that the panels don't overlap, which I mitigated by wearing ontop of my thermals, and then if I was overheating, I could strip off warming layers without compromising protection.  The key to this system though is to have your insulating garments (fleece, Snugpak/Integral Designs jacket, and rain/wind shell) sized large enough to fit over top of the armour.

Trying to reduce sweating is definitely a constant battle, however it's something that must be weighed against the threat matrix, as to whether its ok to reduce the PPE levels so as to reduce the possibility of cold weather injuries (i.e. hypothermia) due to excessive overheating and sweating.  We're seeing the Marine Corps reduce its PPE by going from the full 'Modular Tactical Vest' body armour to the 'Scalable Plate Carrier' for certain ops to reduce weight and concern for overheating.

 

[R711]

If you look @ the swedish army trg manuels they wear their body armor underneath the parka and over the long underwear. I ll see if i can get a pic.
R711 OUT

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Back in september my squadron ran a grenade range, which I was to help in the running of. As it was wet, cold and miserable, and to allow access to my pockets, I took off my ICE/whatever it's called-combat jacket, and wore body armour on top of a t-shirt/helly hansen lifa top combo. And then put my jacket back on over top of it all (as we used to do in the british army).

I was looked at like I had 2 heads.

The 'body armour worn as a base layer in cold environments' idea may be still novel to some.....

 

[daftandbarmy]

Back in september my squadron ran a grenade range, which I was to help in the running of. As it was wet, cold and miserable, and to allow access to my pockets, I took off my ICE/whatever it's called-combat jacket, and wore body armour on top of a t-shirt/helly hansen lifa top combo. And then put my jacket back on over top of it all (as we used to do in the british army).

I was looked at like I had 2 heads.

The 'body armour worn as a base layer in cold environments' idea may be still novel to some.....

Except in the British Army I could wear my privately purchased, Arktis chest rig... which was far better IMHO over top of smock and body armour than the 'jacket' type tac vests we trialled.

 

[MikeL]

And each Company did this (at least Bravo and Charles). 

A Coy from 2PPCLI did it aswell. My brother was there (A Coy); you described that event a lil more PG than he did lol

 

[RHFC_piper]

A Coy from 2PPCLI did it aswell. My brother was there (A Coy); you described that event a lil more PG than he did lol

Heh... yeah... that sucked a lot. 


I wasn't sure if A Coy was with us at that point, I only remember working with them after May-ish... but then again, they may have done that in Wainwright too.  Either way, it was brutal.  Fighting in FFO and armour in the winter, with snow shoes, is painful... good training.

 

[dangerboy]

I wasn't sure if A Coy was with us at that point, I only remember working with them after May-ish... but then again, they may have done that in Wainwright too.  Either way, it was brutal.  Fighting in FFO and armour in the winter, with snow shoes, is painful... good training.

We joined the TF for EX Thundering bear I think it was called, the most memorable point was that the majority of the Coy had to be medically evacuated due to sickness.  I remember out of my Sect only one pers did not get sick.

We did do attacks with FFO and PPE wearing snowshoes in Shilo to get us ready to fight in the desert.

 

[RHFC_piper]

We joined the TF for EX Thundering bear I think it was called, the most memorable point was that the majority of the Coy had to be medically evacuated due to sickness.  I remember out of my Sect only one pers did not get sick.

Yeah... I remember that..  It was Norwalk virus, or dysentery, or something along those lines, and Petawawa had you guys quarantined in shacks for most of the Ex...  That sucked. 

We did do attacks with FFO and PPE wearing snowshoes in Shilo to get us ready to fight in the desert.

Well... to be fair; fighting in the desert is a lot like fighting in hip-deep snow... except for the snow... and the cold... and all the extra gear. 

Besides, it's not like there were any other training areas available which more closely mimicked the conditions in Afghanistan... oh wait... yes there was... Texas. 
Oh well... I'm sure we're better soldiers for enduring it all.

 

[Fusaki]

We joined the TF for EX Thundering bear I think it was called

Ex Thunder-In Bear? ;D

 

[RCR Grunt]

Yeah... I remember that..  It was Norwalk virus, or dysentery, or something along those lines, and Petawawa had you guys quarantined in shacks for most of the Ex...  That sucked.   

It was Patricia-Pox, and they didn't want the Royals to catch it!

 

[Greymatters]

Yeah... I remember that..  It was Norwalk virus, or dysentery, or something along those lines, and Petawawa had you guys quarantined in shacks for most of the Ex...  That sucked.   
Well... to be fair; fighting in the desert is a lot like fighting in hip-deep snow... except for the snow... and the cold... and all the extra gear. 

Besides, it's not like there were any other training areas available which more closely mimicked the conditions in Afghanistan... oh wait... yes there was... Texas. 
Oh well... I'm sure we're better soldiers for enduring it all. 

We do have a section of actual desert in southern Manitoba - its where our tank troops trained in WW2, but hardly anybody knows about it - try training in that on a hot Manitoba day and it will be a step closer than 'arctic training'...

As for wearing a standard CF body vest in the winter - Im sure some people have a good explanation for how good of an idea it is but I would still disagree, its right up there with arctic mortar operations, not very practical...

 

[OldSolduer]

Now I maybe a bit dated here,  but wearing body armor for extended winter ops is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Now you have not only a fully loaded ruck, but body armor etc to lug around while dressed for winter.
For a short burst ie an attack, I reckon that's fine, but anything over 24 hours.......hmmmm

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Now I maybe a bit dated here,  but wearing body armor for extended winter ops is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Now you have not only a fully loaded ruck, but body armor etc to lug around while dressed for winter.
For a short burst ie an attack, I reckon that's fine, but anything over 24 hours.......hmmmm

Just like wearing cam paint while doing urban operations.

 

[Greymatters]

My concern is that on an extended operation having a layer of sweat turning into a layer of ice that close to your body can be a risk...

 

[OldSolduer]

My concern is that on an extended operation having a layer of sweat turning into a layer of ice that close to your body can be a risk...

Exactly. Plus the exhaustion factor.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Exactly. Plus the exhaustion factor.

I hear you on that, but it doesn't seem to be altering PPE levels on the other end of the temperature spectrum, where heat exhaustion/heat stroke in Afghanistan/Iraq is a very serious possibility.

Thing about wearing body armour in cold temperatures is to have multiple sets of long underwear tops, and to adopt a changing regime similar to what US troops do when using the 'Mickey Mouse' rubber extreme cold weather boots; every chance you get, you're switching out your sock.  With body armour, you'd be doing the same with your underwear top.  If you're mech, it's not so bad, as you can get a bit of a clothesline going in the back of a LAV, or in your vehicle, but for light guys: 'Welcome to the suck'.

 

[Greymatters]

Exactly. Plus the exhaustion factor.

Wouldnt dehydration be a greater risk?  Maybe its a body type factor - I was always more affected by water loss than by exhaustion (due to smart load-carrying, not uber-muscle fitness)...