Sig Sauer P226?

[KevinB]

For someone who has shot pretty much the whole line of Sig series guns - and is certified by Sig to armorer them as well (took the class out of boredom). The P225 to me does not fit the hand nearly as well as the 226 or 228/229 guns.  Mag capacity is one issue - however they have no released the 225 in a "R" gun - so no rail mounted lights can be added.

The addition of a weapon mounted light is a huge combat force multiplier for any low light situtation - and a vast amount of law enforcement shootings and escalation of force incidents take place in dark or near dark times.

 

[garb811]

In a combat situation, mag capacity is a concern. However, I REALLY have trouble with the idea that LEOs need great, big mag capacity. If you can't get it done with, say 10 rounds in your pistol (being generous), I'd say it's time to pop the trunk and bring out the shoulder fired hardware, or call in the experts, (ERT, SWAT, whatever they call their psuedo elites). YES, I know, MPs deploy, but the same scenario holds. In most cases, your pistol is used to fight your way to the rifle you should have never stored out of reach anyway. Special occasions will require special measures, of course, and you don't always have access to other systems, but I have trouble with the idea of 13 or 15 rounds flying around without the perp ceasing activity.

I'm not slamming LEOs. They have budget constraints the same as everyone else. We'd all like unlimited range time to hone our skills. The standard answer is 'no money for ammo' or 'no overtime allowed for ranges', but the same bean counters say nothing about spending millions on the new flavour of the day sidearm without considering whether it's needed or not, just that it's cool and someone says we have to keep up with the Jones'. Ammo and markmanship time is what's needed, not new hardware. The Hi-Power served well for many, many years and held 13 rounds. How many times did MPs have to pull and use them, and use 13 rounds? (Perhaps one of our resident Mil Pol can site us a case or two and the end results?) I'll wager not as much as civvie LEOs. Yet I know many of civvie LEOs that have never taken the service gun from the holster, except to clean and range practice, their whole carreer. The upgrade from the Browning, and others, was justified in many cases for the ability for a first round double action pull. On the civvie side in most cases, all shots are double action only long, draggy, pulls to ensure the courts you really, really meant to take the shot. With the Sigs that's not an issue. So what's the big deal with these constant changing of toys?

Just my $00.02, and shooting 5-7,000 rds (pistol) a year and owning almost more iron than the CF doesn't make me an expert, nor do my deployments. Just sayin'.

I know of 3 shootings by MP which involved the Browning.  In one, 2 MPs went through 2 mags each and, if I recall correctly, missed with all of them.  The other 2 shoots were probably less than a mag each but that was because the rounds were on target and effective.  Each of these shoots were a different tactical scenario so you can't draw conclusions from them as to how many rounds we should be carrying.  I am also aware of several other situations involving both the Browning and the Sig which could have ended with shots fired if things had gone slightly different.

This is similar to the debate which raged when people started realizing that the old "standard combat load" the CF had been using for generations was insufficient.  Once you're into the situation, what you have to use is what you have on your person, there is no running to the trunk and popping the lid.  This may be possible for follow-on pers but not for the LEO who finds out the hard way that they showed up to a gun fight.

Back to the questions about getting the P226.  Right now, it is the intent of the Branch to adopt whatever weapon is chosen to replace the Browning for the rest of the Forces, although I do know the Branch is also investigating various other options to hedge its bets in case the CF doesn't move on that replacement project.

 

[NL_engineer]

I know of 3 shootings by MP which involved the Browning.  In one, 2 MPs went through 2 mags each and, if I recall correctly, missed with all of them. 

If I were to guess, I think that the problem may have been the weapon  :

 

[Stoker]

If I were to guess, I think that the problem may have been the weapon  :

Easy to blame it on the weapon, perhaps it was the person using said weapon.

 

[garb811]

WTF are these comments about and where do you see anything being said about blaming the Browning for the misses?

 

[HItorMiss]

Garb I believe Stroker missed the Eye rolling emote and that NL_Engineer was actualy blaming the shooters, using the common excuse of the eqioment vice the user.

 

[garb811]

I know what they were saying, just wondering why they thought it was appropriate in the context of the thread.  I know the shitstorm that would fly if someone went into the Infantry forum and started interjecting comments like that when the discussion was about the appropriate number of rounds required to be carried.  Put bluntly, the two MPs were exchanging fire with a hostile shooter and snide remarks about their marksmanship ability are out of line.

 

[chris_log]

I know of 3 shootings by MP which involved the Browning.  In one, 2 MPs went through 2 mags each and, if I recall correctly, missed with all of them.  The other 2 shoots were probably less than a mag each but that was because the rounds were on target and effective.  Each of these shoots were a different tactical scenario so you can't draw conclusions from them as to how many rounds we should be carrying.  I am also aware of several other situations involving both the Browning and the Sig which could have ended with shots fired if things had gone slightly different.

This is similar to the debate which raged when people started realizing that the old "standard combat load" the CF had been using for generations was insufficient.  Once you're into the situation, what you have to use is what you have on your person, there is no running to the trunk and popping the lid.  This may be possible for follow-on pers but not for the LEO who finds out the hard way that they showed up to a gun fight.

Back to the questions about getting the P226.  Right now, it is the intent of the Branch to adopt whatever weapon is chosen to replace the Browning for the rest of the Forces, although I do know the Branch is also investigating various other options to hedge its bets in case the CF doesn't move on that replacement project.

Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but re: your comments are these 'shoots' on the range or were these actual incidents? I ask out of pure curiosity, as I have not really heard any stories of MP's being in such a situation domestically. Just curious, I think those would be interesting stories to hear.

 

[garb811]

Shootings while conducting domestic policing.

 

[chris_log]

Shootings while conducting domestic policing.

Is it possible to elaborate? I did a google search and didn't turn anything up, is there a link with something along the lines of the police reports civvie police forces put out?

Again, I've never really heard of any such incidents with MP's and now I'm really curious.

 

[Stoker]

Sorry I did miss the rolling eyes and retract that comment.  I use the P225 at work and I have the privilege to own a personal P225. I find it an excellent easy to use weapon and the smaller size benefits people with smaller hands which the P226 does not.  If the CF does go with a SIG P226 it will be a sound decision. I think however the argument of replacing the P225 because of reduced mag capacity is not a valid one. Generally how many mags do a MP usually carry? If its like us in the Navy we carry 3 mags for a total 24 rounds, is that enough to take care of a potentially hazardous situation?

 

[KevinB]

Well you could run into 25 people  ;D

I prefer the P228 or P239 for smaller guns -

 

[NL_engineer]

I know what they were saying, just wondering why they thought it was appropriate in the context of the thread.  I know the shitstorm that would fly if someone went into the Infantry forum and started interjecting comments like that when the discussion was about the appropriate number of rounds required to be carried.  Put bluntly, the two MPs were exchanging fire with a hostile shooter and snide remarks about their marksmanship ability are out of line.

I should nave added a bit more to my comment.  Having shot the good old browning, I know how accurate it is  :, I think the case of the two MP's shooting 20 plus rounds and not hitting the target is a case of equipment not training.

 

[KevinB]

Poor carpenter blames his tools...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I should nave added a bit more to my comment.  Having shot the good old browning, I know how accurate it is  :, I think the case of the two MP's shooting 20 plus rounds and not hitting the target is a case of equipment not training

Poor carpenter blames his tools...

Exactly I-6. Properly maintained, sighted in and adjusted, the Hi Power is plenty accurate and more than capable of maintaining it POA. After all, it wasn't a favourite throughout the world because it was a piece of crap.

 

[medaid]

Properly Maintaine is the key here. Improper maintenance is the reason why the majority of the HP sucks in the CF.

 

[HItorMiss]

Lets also be honest there are only two groups of people in the CF that get proper instruction and the trigger time to use it and use it well, and MP is not in that group. I don't blame the MP's for missing either through improper care (Likely the pistol was older then they were) nor through bad marksmanship, Hell they shot back and did their job that's comendable in my books.

As for the 226 it's a great weapon from what I have seen, it should be be the front runner in any replacement bid.

 

[Fusaki]

Lets also be honest there are only two groups of people in the CF that get proper instruction and the trigger time to use it and use it well, and MP is not in that group.

You mean the JTF and the CFSAC Team?

I'll bet the HUMINT guys shoot pretty well too, not to mention those Close Protection dudes (but they're an MP unit so you couldn't have meant them).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Properly Maintaine is the key here. Improper maintenance is the reason why the majority of the HP sucks in the CF.

Most CF HPs would do suprisingly well if you put a brand new mag in them.

 

[KevinB]

Trigger time and training are relevant things.

Back in the day - a unti sent people to Mid-South - arguably one of the best schools for teaching pistol and rifle.  For some reasons (some inside and other outside) CF control - Mid-South was not used - and BlackWater came to be the place to go for training.  At that point the training level dimished some.

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