RangerRay
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Not to mention, the typical Canadian trait of pandering to ethnic blocs by ignoring our national security and chucking our principles.
Sept 2023 UKR Vet Recognition Incident (merged from several threads)
- Thread starter Humphrey Bogart
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Halifax Tar
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Retired AF Guy
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Remember the Wehrmacht was just as guilty of committing war crimes as the SS was.
FJAG
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I think once again you are simplifying events to form a narrative. Urman is a small village on the western border with Poland. Its history has it changing hands several times most recently being created as an entity after being part of the Austrian-Hungary Empire. It lies very close to the Polish/Ukrainian border and after the invasion of Poland by both Germany and the USSR it was part of the Russian/USSR territory.
In other words it is totally meaningless as to whether Urman was Polish or Ukrainian. It had been subjugated by Russia and many people in Europe hated the communists of the day and wanted to be liberated from them.
Germany was the only game in town to join at that time if you wanted the USSR out and to join the German military as a foreigner - either Pole or Ukrainian or otherwise - had to join the Waffen SS.
The Waffen SS was distinct from the SS even though ultimately under the same commander. In the broadest and general terms - the majority of the SS were involved in war crimes but not general combat operations. The majority of the Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht were involved in general combat albeit some were from time to time involved in war crimes.
One additional factor to take into consideration is that Germany had no monopoly on antisemitism. It was wide spread at the time particularly in Eastern European countries including Poland, Hungary, Russia and many more. That's not to excuse Germans - they developed the art on an industrial scale - but to make it clear that there wasn't any given national or regional boundary with good guys on one side and bad guys on the other. There is no allegation that I have seen that Hunka was ever involved in a war crime.
What is one hundred percent clear is that the speaker made a gross and fundamental mistake which embarrassed not only this country but Zelenskyy as well. As @Baloo stated above: if you fought against the Russians in WW2, you would in all probability have been in the Waffen SS which in western eyes is associated with the SS. That should have been a red flag to anyone with the most basic understanding of history. Anyone who screws up at this level should no longer hold a job of any importance.
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To further my guess, it seems that Mr. Rota is meeting with the House Leaders tomorrow…
OldSolduer
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Falling on his sword….or is Justin pushing it in?
Blackadder1916
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Who's what depends on where and when.
Years and years ago when I was in Texas, I became friends with an American Army officer who was on the same course. He was generally a good guy, despite being a bit full of himself about being a newly qualified MSC aviator (he had been artillery). He was even more obnoxious about being "Hungarian". He had been born in the old country and, as a child, with his family had followed his father (who had got out earlier, joined the US Army Special Forces, served in Vietnam), they had been in a refugee center in Italy for a spell before settling in Oklahoma. But he was Hungarian right down to his goulash and paprikash soul. As the Cold War was ending about us, discussion eventually turned to changing circumstances over there and would he ever go back to visit. So, I asked him where was he from. He mentioned the village name, but further discovered that the village wasn't in Hungary, but in Yugoslavia. It might have been in "Hungary" at one time, or maybe Serbia, or at least the Austro-Hungarian Empire. It might have switched back and forth a few times and the Hungarian Army likely occupied it for a time (along with the Germans) during the early '40s. But it was 'Yugoslavia' when he was born and when he left. In fact he had never been across the border into Hungary in his entire life. He got upset when I nicknamed him "Tito".
FJAG
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That's interesting and clearly shows how complicated the issue is.
In my own case I was born in Berlin Germany. My father was from Berlin (i.e. Prussia) and my mother from a small village in East Prussia. That village is now in Poland. I'm not Polish, even half Polish. I'm ethnic German (at least that's what I've been told - never have had a DNA test
). The fact that that little village has spent centuries belonging to this principality or that one and that it has had various labels at various times doesn't matter to me. I might be ethnically German but I'm not politically German. I'm one of those immigrants who holds that being an immigrant means that you assimilate into your adoptive country and don't carry the old country's centuries of grievances on your back. (Actually it's damn convenient because you also don't have to carry your adoptive country's past wrongs and injustices on your back either - you stand neutral)One of the issues that really complicate things is that 150 years ago people rarely moved more than a dozen miles from where they were born. It was easy to define specific regions. The two world wars created much movement as refugees resettled all over the place. Add to that forced resettlement and the ethic Russians' penchant for moving into the various SSRs and taking up space (and often leadership) so that they now consider it their own, and you end up with no end of kindling for tinderboxes.
Haggis
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I spent many teenage hours in the mid to late 70"s tramping through cemeteries and archive halls assisting my mother with writing the family history. Fast forward 40 years and I was gifted a DNA test by a close friend. I submitted it, with a healthy dose of skepticism, and the results completely validated my mom's research.I'm ethnic German (at least that's what I've been told - never have had a DNA test
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False.
The SS in its entirety was condemned as a criminal organization; not the Wehrmacht.
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My Grandfather’s (maternal side) family came from Germany, a part that is now Poland, but they left just prior to WW1.That's interesting and clearly shows how complicated the issue is.
In my own case I was born in Berlin Germany. My father was from Berlin (i.e. Prussia) and my mother from a small village in East Prussia. That village is now in Poland. I'm not Polish, even half Polish. I'm ethnic German (at least that's what I've been told - never have had a DNA test
He never considered himself Polish after WW2 ended.
Me to, which is why I can be so critical of Canada
Depending on where one ended up when the music stopped after WW2’s musical chairs often became a decision point if one’s Anti USSR stake was ‘bad’ or ‘good’.One of the issues that really complicate things is that 150 years ago people rarely moved more than a dozen miles from where they were born. It was easy to define specific regions. The two world wars created much movement as refugees resettled all over the place. Add to that forced resettlement and the ethic Russians' penchant for moving into the various SSRs and taking up space (and often leadership) so that they now consider it their own, and you end up with no end of kindling for tinderboxes.
Counter Communist actions in Greece, and elsewhere in Europe Post WW2 often were a civil war in everything but name.
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My family's hometown has been continually populated by one group or another since antiquity. It's been conquered by everyone from the Phoenicians, the Carthagenians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Vikings, the Normans, the Italians, the Nazis, and the Allies to boot. My family have been Siciliano long since before Garibaldi's folk dismantled the Kingdom and formed this idea of "Italians" being a thing.
WRT this SS Ukranian fellow, the concept of "the enemy of my enemies is my friend" comes in to play a bit here. This was the norm on the Eastern Front because of the historical wrongs done to Romani, Slavs, Poles, Jews, and Ukranians by the Russian Empire over a matter of centuries, not merely the Soviets picking up the mantle. Add to it that a lot of former Austro-Hungarian territories still had ties to their previous pre- Treaty of Paris 1919 allies; I can see the 50/50 toss favoring one over the other.
That also takes into account that we are also looking this through a historical bias of having all the facts that came out post 1945 about what the Nazis were doing across Europe. In 1939, not so much was known about Hitler's master plan, so much so that he retained some support amonst the British Aristocracy as a deterrent to the Communist uprising they all feared during the Great Depression. If in 1941, someone speaking German comes by, promising to avenge the Soviet/Russian atrocities from decades before, and you're a Ukranian with a bone to pick with Stalin, it's an easy sell (especially when you don’t have a lick of an idea what's going to happening at Auschwitz or Treblinka...) .
What is not in the least acceptable is in 2023, knowing exactly what occurred in that theatre of war and what atrocities can be attributed to the 1st Ukranian Division and the Waffen SS, provide any measure of support or recognition to its members. Full stop.
One of Vlad's motives for going to war was "de-Nazification" of Ukraine, and this plays 100 percent into that narrative. This is a propaganda victory for the Russians and I place the blame solely on the PMO for this stupidity.
WRT this SS Ukranian fellow, the concept of "the enemy of my enemies is my friend" comes in to play a bit here. This was the norm on the Eastern Front because of the historical wrongs done to Romani, Slavs, Poles, Jews, and Ukranians by the Russian Empire over a matter of centuries, not merely the Soviets picking up the mantle. Add to it that a lot of former Austro-Hungarian territories still had ties to their previous pre- Treaty of Paris 1919 allies; I can see the 50/50 toss favoring one over the other.
That also takes into account that we are also looking this through a historical bias of having all the facts that came out post 1945 about what the Nazis were doing across Europe. In 1939, not so much was known about Hitler's master plan, so much so that he retained some support amonst the British Aristocracy as a deterrent to the Communist uprising they all feared during the Great Depression. If in 1941, someone speaking German comes by, promising to avenge the Soviet/Russian atrocities from decades before, and you're a Ukranian with a bone to pick with Stalin, it's an easy sell (especially when you don’t have a lick of an idea what's going to happening at Auschwitz or Treblinka...) .
What is not in the least acceptable is in 2023, knowing exactly what occurred in that theatre of war and what atrocities can be attributed to the 1st Ukranian Division and the Waffen SS, provide any measure of support or recognition to its members. Full stop.
One of Vlad's motives for going to war was "de-Nazification" of Ukraine, and this plays 100 percent into that narrative. This is a propaganda victory for the Russians and I place the blame solely on the PMO for this stupidity.
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Might have been in the Province of Vojvodina. I've been there a couple of times.
I visited Tito's grave in Belgrade. Nothing political, just as a tourist.
But, every place and home , from what I saw , had his picture.
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I don't believe that the 'village changing hands' has anything to do with this. From the time period of 1920 (when Poland was formally recognized as an independent country) until 17 September when the SU invaded eastern Poland, the town of Urman was within the sovereign borders of Poland. The individual was born in 1925 and thus was a citizen of Poland.I think once again you are simplifying events to form a narrative. Urman is a small village on the western border with Poland. Its history has it changing hands several times most recently being created as an entity after being part of the Austrian-Hungary Empire. It lies very close to the Polish/Ukrainian border and after the invasion of Poland by both Germany and the USSR it was part of the Russian/USSR territory.
In other words it is totally meaningless as to whether Urman was Polish or Ukrainian. It had been subjugated by Russia and many people in Europe hated the communists of the day and wanted to be liberated from them.
Germany was the only game in town to join at that time if you wanted the USSR out and to join the German military as a foreigner - either Pole or Ukrainian or otherwise - had to join the Waffen SS.
The Waffen SS was distinct from the SS even though ultimately under the same commander. In the broadest and general terms - the majority of the SS were involved in war crimes but not general combat operations. The majority of the Waffen SS and the Wehrmacht were involved in general combat albeit some were from time to time involved in war crimes.
One additional factor to take into consideration is that Germany had no monopoly on antisemitism. It was wide spread at the time particularly in Eastern European countries including Poland, Hungary, Russia and many more. That's not to excuse Germans - they developed the art on an industrial scale - but to make it clear that there wasn't any given national or regional boundary with good guys on one side and bad guys on the other. There is no allegation that I have seen that Hunka was ever involved in a war crime.
What is one hundred percent clear is that the speaker made a gross and fundamental mistake which embarrassed not only this country but Zelenskyy as well. As @Baloo stated above: if you fought against the Russians in WW2, you would in all probability have been in the Waffen SS which in western eyes is associated with the SS. That should have been a red flag to anyone with the most basic understanding of history. Anyone who screws up at this level should no longer hold a job of any importance.
If we look at what went on within Czechoslovakia and the region known as the 'Sudetenland' from the time that Czechoslovakia was recognized as independent (Oct 28, 1918) up until it was completely (first starting with the occupation of the Sudetenland in October of 1938), occupied in March of 1939, the same logic can be applied. An ethnic German, born in say 1925 in the Sudetenland and living as a Czech citizen up until 1938 would be the same situation - an ethnic minority in a country that was invaded by Germany. If this individual, like Mr Hunka, willing joined the Waffen SS, then their respective former country of their birth has every right to declare them a traitor to their country of birth.
I personally have met a ethnic German of Czech citizenship born in 1922 in the Sudetenland on a flight from Prague to Amsterdam in Jan of 1995. The difference was, he fled the Sudetenland in Oct 1938 to Prague and then on to France in early 1939. He then went on to join the French army as a doctor when the war started, fled France in May of 1940 to England, joined the British army as a doctor and finished out the war in May of 1945. He went back to Czechoslovakia (Sudetenland) in the summer of 1945 and was allowed back to his ancestral estate in Usti nad Labem (formerly known as 'Aussig' in the Sudetenland. He was given back his home and all its land and contents because of his fighting for France and Britain during the war. In 1948 when the Communists coup occurred, he was still allowed to keep his house and its land because of his war service. He choose to leave back to England shortly after and was given back his land/house once again in 1992 after the Velvet Revolution.
" If in 1941, someone speaking German comes by, promising to avenge the Soviet/Russian atrocities from decades before, and you're a Ukranian with a bone to pick with Stalin, it's an easy sell (especially when you don’t have a lick of an idea what's going to happening at Auschwitz or Treblinka...) ."
As for that blanket statement, I think you might want to research Trawniki men - Wikipedia
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Probably the latter, but at least he stands behind him.
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I think some of the commentary here misses the point. This massive blunder by the Speaker is only obliquely about how Nazis got into Canada post World War 2.
What is really on display is what happens when you have a post-modernist distain of history and facts as Government Policy.
This is what unthinking virtue signalling, all of the time, on every issue gets you. In this particular case, the Liberals have done very real damage to the Ukrainian War effort by providing the Russians, for free, a massive propaganda win.
Sure, the Speaker is in theory independent, but with this Prime Minister and this PMO, does anyone truly believe it?
The Liberals need to be defeated. After Chinese influence; after India; after this incident, they are not fit to govern. If the NDP had a shred of dignity, they would pull the plug.
The CPC had better heed well and learn the lesson- do basic research, don’t suborn the good of Canada to the good of Party and insist as an iron clad rule upon Ministerial Responsibility.
What is really on display is what happens when you have a post-modernist distain of history and facts as Government Policy.
This is what unthinking virtue signalling, all of the time, on every issue gets you. In this particular case, the Liberals have done very real damage to the Ukrainian War effort by providing the Russians, for free, a massive propaganda win.
Sure, the Speaker is in theory independent, but with this Prime Minister and this PMO, does anyone truly believe it?
The Liberals need to be defeated. After Chinese influence; after India; after this incident, they are not fit to govern. If the NDP had a shred of dignity, they would pull the plug.
The CPC had better heed well and learn the lesson- do basic research, don’t suborn the good of Canada to the good of Party and insist as an iron clad rule upon Ministerial Responsibility.
Here’s a fun twist. Poland is apparently now seeking to have Mr. Hunka extradited.
Halifax Tar
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2 points:
1) I don't give two shits where this evil miscreant was born or his life story. He willingly wore the uniform of the Waffen SS and was then recognized and celebrated by our elected representatives. There is no justifying this or nuance. How he has been allowed to enjoy our freedoms and services for all these years shocks me. Him and everyone still alive like him should be offered to Israel for trial and persecution as they see fit, or dumped in the ocean with cement shoes, and let their maker decide their final fate.
2) This was led by a member of party that screams Nazis seemingly every time someone disagrees with them. They have lost the moral authority to govern this country. If they have any thread of decency left they need to collapse the government and let the people decide their political fates.
This is a grievous insult to every service member who has ever worn our uniforms. Its grievous insult to the millions of folks who suffered under or were murdered by these people; and its handed Putin a PR win.
1) I don't give two shits where this evil miscreant was born or his life story. He willingly wore the uniform of the Waffen SS and was then recognized and celebrated by our elected representatives. There is no justifying this or nuance. How he has been allowed to enjoy our freedoms and services for all these years shocks me. Him and everyone still alive like him should be offered to Israel for trial and persecution as they see fit, or dumped in the ocean with cement shoes, and let their maker decide their final fate.
2) This was led by a member of party that screams Nazis seemingly every time someone disagrees with them. They have lost the moral authority to govern this country. If they have any thread of decency left they need to collapse the government and let the people decide their political fates.
This is a grievous insult to every service member who has ever worn our uniforms. Its grievous insult to the millions of folks who suffered under or were murdered by these people; and its handed Putin a PR win.
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And they should - as I've been saying all along - he was born in Poland in 1925 - he was a Polish citizen!
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Seems odd that the Polish Minister for Education would write that -- not their Justice Minister.
Also - from the same article
The Speaker was allocated a set number of spots in the viewing gallery and the list of potential guests was shared with Parliament's Protocol Office, which co-ordinates the sending of invitations.
The names of confirmed guests are then passed on to the Corporate Security Office to "facilitate accreditation of guests," Amélie Crosson, the Speaker's communications director, said in a statement to CBC News.
Seems to be a fail on multiple parties.
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