Sept 2023 UKR Vet Recognition Incident (merged from several threads)

[lenaitch]

If nothing else this has been a good forcing function to go back and re-read a lot of the history for things I didn't really appreciate at the time when I read about it 30+ years ago as a teen. At the time, outlook on life was a lot more black and white, where now realize things are most shades of grey, and sometimes you go with the least terrible option.

Although bits of our current country went back and forth a few times, our history is fairly young and linear. Unless you or your family hails from Europe and has a closer natural connection, we tend not to appreciate the centuries of ethnic and cultural complexity. I'm no student of history but consider myself reasonably read on the broad strokes, but for the life of me I could not at the time, and still can't, keep the players straight after Yugoslavia broke up, even when trying to follow the events of the day.

 

[Kirkhill]

Slovenian - kraj (place)
Estonian - kraj (region)

Polish - kraj (country)
Lithuanian - krajin (country)

Czech - krajina (country)
Slovakian - krajina (country)
Latvian - krajina (country)
Ukrainian - krajina (country)

Ukrainian - kraj (land)
Ukrainian - kraji (edges, borders)
Ukrainian - krajin (countries)

U - topia - no place

U - krajina - no country

The Borders or the Marches as we know them in Great Britain.
Marche in France
Marche in Italy
Mark in Denmark.

 

[lenaitch]

Like actors who portray villains in movies say, no one thinks of themselves as the bad guys (or not many).

Hunka probably thinks thought of himself as a patriot and his family also probably had a positive opinion of him. Otherwise, why did they start the endowment in his name and (according to some reports) why did his son make the request to the Speaker (office?) for the invite to hear the Ukrainian President address Parliament (and probably provided the characterization of his father being a Ukrainian war hero who fought against the Russians).

Yes, someone in Rota's orbit should have made the timeline connection about fighting Russians, but nothing surprises me about the ignorance of . . . well, a whole lot of groups. But even those responsible for "vetting" guests, what would have a search have immediately turned up with "Hunka". Googling it now gets hundreds of links to the story about that man. Last week, one might just as likely to found an obscure link to an Elvis Presley song.


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I wasn't aware that his son got the ball rolling (I like my story better). It still doesn't excuse a number of layers for dropping the ball. Fought against the Russians as a Nazi - fought against the Nazis as a Russian; minefields abound.

Betcha the son feels great about the whole thing now.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I wasn't aware that his son got the ball rolling (I like my story better). It still doesn't excuse a number of layers for dropping the ball. Fought against the Russians as a Nazi - fought against the Nazis as a Russian; minefields abound.

Betcha the son feels great about the whole thing now.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/yaroslav-hunka-canada-nazi-germany-faq-1.6981437

How did Hunka get invited?​

Ahead of Zelenskyy's visit, Hunka's son contacted Rota's constituency office and asked whether it would be possible for him to attend. Hunka lives in North Bay, Ont., a city some 300 kilometres north of Toronto that is part of Rota's riding.

Rota gave him one of the seats in his own viewing gallery.

Generally, the process of who gets invited to such events is "pretty opaque," according to one former official, but the Speaker would certainly have sway.

 

[Blackadder1916]

And the stupid come out. Is this really a downside?

Rob Schneider cancels Canada trip after man who fought for Nazis honoured in Parliament - National | Globalnews.ca

Yaroslav Hunka, who fought in the Second World War for Nazi Germany, was honoured in the House of Commons with a standing ovation across party lines.

globalnews.ca

 

[Navy_Pete]

I wasn't aware that his son got the ball rolling (I like my story better). It still doesn't excuse a number of layers for dropping the ball. Fought against the Russians as a Nazi - fought against the Nazis as a Russian; minefields abound.

Betcha the son feels great about the whole thing now.

In a related 'Are we the baddies' moment; "We are very self aware" makes me laugh everytime, and I guess guys like Flula balance out the German engineers.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

And the stupid come out. Is this really a downside?

Rob Schneider cancels Canada trip after man who fought for Nazis honoured in Parliament - National | Globalnews.ca

Yaroslav Hunka, who fought in the Second World War for Nazi Germany, was honoured in the House of Commons with a standing ovation across party lines.

globalnews.ca

Never heard of him!!

 

[KevinB]

At the end of the day it was a bad gaffe.
Frankly I shake my head at all the members of the HoC most who are old enough to remember who fought in WW2…
But unlike Russia who commits war crimes every day, Canada made a choice of poor etiquette (and revealed a terrible understanding of history) but no one died.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Poor etiquette, messing up protocol, and geopolitical gaffes are all marks against in my books.

This seems to be on par with the "dumbing down" of Pomp and Pagentry we have seen from this government since they have taken office. This was an official visit by a Foreign Head of State who has the eyes of the world on his every move ...and we fucked up big time.

And it is 100 percent because no one in Government or Rideau Hall gave two shits about getting it right. Why? Because it has no bearing on the next election cycle. Because Canadians are more insular and isolationist than ever. Because we half ass anything when it comes to exercising judgement on foreign policy or diplomacy.

I think to recent photos from the Governor General's inspection of the Ceremonial Guard. Dress of the Guard is No 1B. Dress for Her Excellency? Some weird hybrid of No 3B with Forge Cap. A simpleton may not have noticed, but this shows how much the thought process of the staffers went to proper protocol. The GG is the Colonel of The Regiment for every Household Division regiment, and is entitled to wear Full Ceremonial when fulfilling those duties. His Excellency David Johnston (before he was a Special Rapporteur) inspected in No 1B, as he should have. Instead? "Uh.... military uniform I guess? Something summery because it's hot I guess..."

We sluff it off as unimportant and then shit like this happens, with echos across the geopolitical landscape.

Appearances are everything. Protocol is everything. Cutting corners doesn't make a better circle, it just makes a shittier octagon. And this whole debacle is rooted in someone refusing to grab a compass and protractor to draw it out properly .

 

[dapaterson]

If the GG presents in an incorrect uniform, that is the fault of her CAF staff.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If the GG presents in an incorrect uniform, that is the fault of her CAF staff.

I loop them in as well.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Proportionality matters, everywhere and always. Disinclined to take any sh!t from countries (and the people who live in them) that have done far, far, far worse things.

 

[Kirkhill]

I am pretty sure that in 1945 the Geneva Conventions didn't apply east of the Gates of Vienna. And a lot of people west of those Gates applied them prettily.

 

[captloadie]

Poor etiquette, messing up protocol, and geopolitical gaffes are all marks against in my books.

This seems to be on par with the "dumbing down" of Pomp and Pagentry we have seen from this government since they have taken office. This was an official visit by a Foreign Head of State who has the eyes of the world on his every move ...and we fucked up big time.

And it is 100 percent because no one in Government or Rideau Hall gave two shits about getting it right. Why? Because it has no bearing on the next election cycle. Because Canadians are more insular and isolationist than ever. Because we half ass anything when it comes to exercising judgement on foreign policy or diplomacy.

I think to recent photos from the Governor General's inspection of the Ceremonial Guard. Dress of the Guard is No 1B. Dress for Her Excellency? Some weird hybrid of No 3B with Forge Cap. A simpleton may not have noticed, but this shows how much the thought process of the staffers went to proper protocol. The GG is the Colonel of The Regiment for every Household Division regiment, and is entitled to wear Full Ceremonial when fulfilling those duties. His Excellency David Johnston (before he was a Special Rapporteur) inspected in No 1B, as he should have. Instead? "Uh.... military uniform I guess? Something summery because it's hot I guess..."

We sluff it off as unimportant and then shit like this happens, with echos across the geopolitical landscape.

Appearances are everything. Protocol is everything. Cutting corners doesn't make a better circle, it just makes a shittier octagon. And this whole debacle is rooted in someone refusing to grab a compass and protractor to draw it out properly .

Or perhaps the GG decided that portions of that uniform go against her personal beliefs, both of the materials it was made of, or what it represents in relation to past wrongs to Aboriginal peoples. And being seen in that particular uniform would make her look like a puppet to the government. And I get that the GG is a figure head and is mainly there for the pomp and ceremony, but is it wrong that this particular individual chooses this to be where she stands her ground on principle.

As for the dumbing down of pomp and ceremony, well, its a no win situation for any sitting government. Spend any more money on the bare minimum of ceremony, and the ATIs fly in so "news" stories can demand government accountability on how they spend taxpayers money. If it wasn't for this Hunka fiasco, I'm sure we would soon see a story about how much money this official visit cost Canadian taxpayers which could have been better spent on reducing the cost of groceries and housing.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I thought Turdeau's apology started off well and I was impressed. This was a Parliament fuck up and not a Liberal Party thing, so apologizing on behalf of the Parliament seemed very appropriate.

Then Trudeau's self-serving leadership style quickly took over and he unabashedly and publically blamed everything on Rota.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Fought against the Russians Soviet Communists as a Nazi - fought against the Nazis as a Soviet Communists Russian; minefields abound ...

Subtle, but significant difference to remember, especially re: how USSR 1.0 was viewed by the west post-war (with a lot of people reminding folks that the Communists killed way more than the Nazis whevever comparisons were made before the "Guess Who's Coming to the Gallery?" moment this month) - but still with minefields aplenty.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I thought Turdeau's apology started off well and I was impressed. This was a Parliament fuck up and not a Liberal Party thing, so apologizing on behalf of the Parliament seemed very appropriate.

Then Trudeau's self-serving leadership style quickly took over and he unabashedly and publically blamed everything on Rota.

Two days late and a dollar short. The PM's apology would have gone over better if he had made a public statement the day following the fiasco, in which he extended Canada's apology and should have included the 'opinion' that Mr. Rota should resign rather than leaving it to one of his ministers to make the comment days later in the House. Mr. Rota could then have taken the chair on the earliest opportunity that the House was sitting, made his personal apology, resigned and left with what little dignity he had left. Then, when the PM was next in for QP, he could have made his 'Parliament's' apology. Regardless of what he did, even if he covered himself in sackcloth and ashes and flagellated himself publicly from sun up to sundown, Poilievre would still have tried to make political hay from lt. I wasn't looking closely at the ovation for Hunka; I think everyone on the floor was standing, applauding. Maybe every MP and senator, and all the bemedalled spectators who also cheered should be apologizing for not making the connection.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Or perhaps the GG decided that portions of that uniform go against her personal beliefs, both of the materials it was made of, or what it represents in relation to past wrongs to Aboriginal peoples.

No 1s or No 3s they're all the King's uniform and bear the symbol of the Crown. Speak with most aboriginals about the use of furs; it's a way of life for them and so long as the animal isn't harvested solely for pelt (if memory serves correct, the supplier of bearskins to the Household Division is an aboriginal owned company in Alberta)

And being seen in that particular uniform would make her look like a puppet to the government. And I get that the GG is a figure head and is mainly there for the pomp and ceremony, but is it wrong that this particular individual chooses this to be where she stands her ground on principle.

If that is the case, than it's hypocrisy manifest and its wholly wrong. Her Excellency is His Majesty's representative in Canada; she represents the Crown in action and belief. If she cannot reconcile her personal beliefs about past offenses against indigenous people by the Crown she represents, than she can hand over the keys to Rideau Hall and all the other perks that come with it.

Being in proper dress and following proper protocol asked of someone who is appointed as Head of State is not a matter of personal opinion. You represent all Canadians and the Crown at the same time, you can put on the right set of clothes for a 2 hours parade.

As for the dumbing down of pomp and ceremony, well, its a no win situation for any sitting government. Spend any more money on the bare minimum of ceremony, and the ATIs fly in so "news" stories can demand government accountability on how they spend taxpayers money. If it wasn't for this Hunka fiasco, I'm sure we would soon see a story about how much money this official visit cost Canadian taxpayers which could have been better spent on reducing the cost of groceries and housing.

Again, see my comment about how badly this attitude fucks us over on the global scale. Think to the UK post WWII. They needed foreign investment to keep afloat, and by God they got it. How? By showing the Americans a good time, both with the Kennedy visit and Princess Maggie's charming of LBJ during her visit of the U.S.

Pomp and Ceremony is an investment in networking. It's why I go to the mess every Thursday and attend whatever mess dinners are required of me; the food is mediocre, I don't drink alcohol, but the contacts I make from showing face pay dividends when I need to ask for a favour.

Right now, Canada has no friends and isn't getting invited to any parties. There is far more to politics than merely domestic ones, and PMJT and the LPC are going to feel that pinch a lot harder as they continue down this path.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I thought Turdeau's apology started off well and I was impressed. This was a Parliament fuck up and not a Liberal Party thing, so apologizing on behalf of the Parliament seemed very appropriate.

I see what you did there ...

Then Trudeau's self-serving leadership style quickly took over and he unabashedly and publically blamed everything on Rota.

Doing it in Parliament would have been nice, too - although he repeated the apology bits many times during Question Period where he was there (Hansard QP bit on Waffen SS Shenanigans from 27 Sept attached).

 

[Brad Sallows]

Can't help but think that the politicians of 50+ years ago would have been quicker to apologize, resign (if only for form's sake), etc. Today, they just delay as long as possible to see how hard the political wind is blowing in case they might be able to brazen it out.