Sept 2023 UKR Vet Recognition Incident (merged from several threads)

[Blackadder1916]

Which is very likely true. There’s a long history in Westminster democracies of a very independent and privileged office of the Speaker, with good reason. Although the speaker is a member of a party, they are not a part of the executive government, and the government does not control their actions.

I’m perfectly fine with assigning blame as appropriate. In this case I truly believe the speaker wears his own screwup.

The best (or at least most knowledgeable IMO) description of how invitations for strangers in the galleries worked was from a former Chief of Protocol.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Someone elsewhere pointed out that Freeland has a background on Ukrainian history and should have raised a redflag, but did not. Have to wonder if she helped slip a knife into her bosses back or she is just not as bright as she likes to think?

Your also assuming that the ministers and MPs examine all of the little details to the fullest.

Its like attending a wedding, if you aren’t actively planning it do you really look over all the details or do you show up at the time in the dress and go with the flow?

 

[Quirky]

This didn't age well:

https://twitter.com/x/status/390904041808867328

Few days later...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Your also assuming that the ministers and MPs examine all of the little details to the fullest.

Its like attending a wedding, if you aren’t actively planning it do you really look over all the details or do you show up at the time in the dress and go with the flow?

JT has staff, Freeland has staff and she is also likley the SME on Canadian-Ukrainian history for the LPC. She will have had time to go over the events for the day. Maybe she was surprised but I doubt it. This government was big on message control for a long time. So very little happens without lots of people sticking their fingers into it.

 

[Navy_Pete]

WW2 alliances is pretty complicated when you look at it; it seems like a lot of people who fought on the Axis side were more in fighting a common enemy, and less aligned with the Nazis. Definitely were strong ideological collaborators, but when you look at Italy, Japan, and a lot of former colonies that were more rebelling against Russia, Britain, France etc a lot of them would have been part of the eventual Nazi final solution.

Still though, being Nazi aligned, regardless of context, is a pretty obvious non-starter for some kind of random dog and pony show type thing, so still stunned that no one thought to actually just google the guy before the ovation in parliament.

Kind of funny, but if the Speaker had just done nothing other than their job, all we would have done is a few footsnotes that Zelinsky visited, with a sound bite of his speech, and carried on, where now we are dealing with an international incident that is feeding into the RUS propaganda machine. If various toffs in Parliament are going to assert independence and authority (for good reason), they should at least not be shit. They don't even have to be outstanding, or even good, just competent. The fact that no one even prepping a MRL list and whatever else they do in the background seems like a massive failure, and is the kind of things that tends to lose independence and lack of oversight forever.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Someone elsewhere pointed out that Freeland has a background on Ukrainian history and should have raised a redflag, but did not. Have to wonder if she helped slip a knife into her bosses back or she is just not as bright as she likes to think?

Your also assuming that the ministers and MPs examine all of the little details to the fullest.

Its like attending a wedding, if you aren’t actively planning it do you really look over all the details or do you show up at the time in the dress and go with the flow?

And do you guys have evidence of how much Freeland knew about a constituency member from someone else's riding in northern Ontario appearing in the gallery? Or how often she's given the list of visitors from the Speaker's Office for perusal? Now, if someone asked her and she said, "good to go," then she's just as not-getting-it as Rota & Co. - although given her family history, I'm sure she more than GETS it. I think Remius summed it up well ...

The speaker effed up. He is to blame. The level of damage this caused though is something though the PM needs or needed to take the lead on ... I don’t blame the PM for the incident ... But criticizing his reaction and the way he handled this is not.

... although I'm happy to leave the door open to more information/evidence filling in the nuance gaps.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

WW2 alliances is pretty complicated when you look at it; it seems like a lot of people who fought on the Axis side were more in fighting a common enemy, and less aligned with the Nazis. Definitely were strong ideological collaborators, but when you look at Italy, Japan, and a lot of former colonies that were more rebelling against Russia, Britain, France etc a lot of them would have been part of the eventual Nazi final solution.

Still though, being Nazi aligned, regardless of context, is a pretty obvious non-starter for some kind of random dog and pony show type thing, so still stunned that no one thought to actually just google the guy before the ovation in parliament.

Kind of funny, but if the Speaker had just done nothing other than their job, all we would have done is a few footsnotes that Zelinsky visited, with a sound bite of his speech, and carried on, where now we are dealing with an international incident that is feeding into the RUS propaganda machine. If various toffs in Parliament are going to assert independence and authority (for good reason), they should at least not be shit. They don't even have to be outstanding, or even good, just competent. The fact that no one even prepping a MRL list and whatever else they do in the background seems like a massive failure, and is the kind of things that tends to lose independence and lack of oversight forever.

Yes we should condemn the Finns..........

Then there was the west supplying weapons and support to a genocidal monster who had little concern for their people. The west then promptly absconded with Nazi scientists and technology.

 

[Blackadder1916]

And the fallout spreads.

University of Alberta closes endowment fund named after Nazi veteran recognized in the House of Commons

The University of Alberta is apologizing for having an endowment fund provided by Yaroslav Hunka, the Nazi veteran recognized in Parliament last week.

edmonton.ctvnews.ca

The University of Alberta is apologizing for having an endowment fund provided by Yaroslav Hunka, the Nazi veteran recognized in Parliament last week.

The Hunka family gave $30,000 to the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the school in 2019 for the Yaroslav and Margaret Hunka Ukrainian Research Endowment Fund.

In a statement to CTV News on Wednesday night, the U of A said it had decided to close the endowment.
. . .

With another twist

The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies (FSWCHS) says this isn't the only endowment fund or tie the university has with people previously involved with Nazis.
"We're glad that they've cancelled the endowment, but unfortunately, this is only one example of endowments at the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies named after members of the Waffen-SS," Dan Panneton said.
. . .
Panneton says former U of A chancellor Peter Savaryn was a member of the Waffen-SS.
Savaryn was U of A chancellor from 1982 to 1986 and helped found the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the university.
He is also a member of the Order of Canada.

 

[OldSolduer]

I’ve put a few thoughts on paper about real Nazis. I need to research it a bit more.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I’ve put a few thoughts on paper about real Nazis. I need to research it a bit more.

My thoughts

 

[Navy_Pete]

Yes we should condemn the Finns..........

Then there was the west supplying weapons and support to a genocidal monster who had little concern for their people. The west then promptly absconded with Nazi scientists and technology.

That's another good example of how complicated the whole thing was, as Finland had initially tried to negotiate with Sweden and the UK to help defend against' Russia's invasion, then eventually militarily allied with Germany (but kept separate units). And then ended up fighting against Germany in some areas as well. But if you want to meet a group of people that hate the USSR and Russia, the Finns, Poles and other former Eastern block countries are a fun group to have a pint with.

All that to say it's complicated, nuanced, and doesn't lend itself to soundbites, so from a North American perspective it's usually set up as either for/against the Nazis, when in reality a lot of countries found themselves caught between a bunch of different hostile countries and just did the best they could in context. But still a big difference in being part of the Finnish army units that fought against Russia during the Winter war and being part of a Ukranian police unit that was part of the SS.

It's not like Canada is pure here either, there were all kinds of political parties in the 30s that openly sided with fascists aligning with the Nazis, along with similar parties in the UK, US and elsewhere. Glad that Oswald Mosley was depicted in Peaky Blinders, as I think that had been glossed over by a lot of people in the UK so they were pretty surprised they had wanna be Nazis sitting as MPs in the 1930s.

I think it might be because movies etc portray the Axis as a bunch of blond haired, blue eyed ubermensch, when the reality in a lot of cases they probably would have happily fought each other if there wasn't a common enemy that was a bigger threat, as the actual Nazis likely thought a lot of their allies were subhumans who made allies of convenience to soak up bullets and otherwise be a distraction, so used them shamelessly.

 

[Kirkhill]

WW2 alliances is pretty complicated when you look at it; it seems like a lot of people who fought on the Axis side were more in fighting a common enemy, and less aligned with the Nazis.

To this point

Partitions of Poland
The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1772
Partitions
The three partitions of Poland (the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth). The Russian Partition (brown), the Austrian Partition (green), and the Prussian Partition (blue)

Austrian Anschluss - 12 March 1938
Neutrality Declaration of Sweden - 29 May 1938
Chamberlain's Munich Agreement - 30 September 1938
Sudetenland handed over to Hitler - 1 October 1938
Neutrality Declaration of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - 18 November 1938
Czechoslovakia occupied by Hitler - 15 March 1939

Stalin-Hitler Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - 23 August 1939
Hitler invades Poland - 1 September 1939
UK declares war on Hitler - 3 September 1939
France declares war on Hitler - 3 September 1939


Canada declares war on Hitler - 10 September 1939
Stalin invades Poland - 17 September 1939
Stalin compels Mutual Assistance Pact with Estonia - 28 September 1939
Stalin Invades Finland - 30 November 1939
Stalin compels Mutual Assistance Pact with Latvia - 5 October 1939
Stalin compels Mutual Assistance Pact with Lithuania - 10 October 1939
Stalin recognizes the Finnish government and sues for peace - 29 January 1940
Canada announces Canadians were free to join the Finnish Forces - 1 March 1940
Stalin and Finland come to terms - 12 March 1940
Hitler invades Denmark and Norway- 9 April 1940
Hitler invades Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg (BeNeLux) - 10 May 1940
Dunkirk - 26 May to 4 June 1940
Stalin invades Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - 15 June 1940
Fall of France - 25 June 1940
Stalin's Soviet Union expelled from the League of Nations - 14 December 1940


Hitler invades Stalin's Soviet Union - 22 June 1941
Hitler invades occupied Latvia - 22 June 1941
Finland declares war on Stalin's Soviet Union - 25 June 1941
Hitler invades occupied Lithuania - 10 July 1941
Hitler invades occupied Estonia - 7 July 1941
UK's Churchill and Stalin sign Anglo-Soviet Agreement - 12 July 1941
Polish-Soviet Sikorski-Mayski Agreement - 30 July 1941


Japan Attacks Pearl Harbor - 7 December 1941
US Declares War on Germany - 11 December 1941

Liberation of Stalingrad - 2 February 1943
Tehran Conference - 28 November 1943
Liberation of Leningrad - 27 January 1944
Lithuania re-occupied by Stalin - 13 July 1944
Latvia re-occupied by Stalin - 17 July 1944
Poland re-occupied by Stalin - August 1944
Estonia re-occupied by Stalin - 16 September 1944
Finland surrenders to Stalin - 19 September 1944
Yalta Conference - 4 February 1945
Fall of Koenigsberg to Stalin - 9 April 1945
VE Day - 8 May 1945
Repatriation of the Cossacks by UK and US - 28 May 1945
Potsdam Conference - 17 July 1945

Moscow Conference the start of Orwell's "Cold War" - 16 December 1945

On 28 May 1945 the British transported 2,046 disarmed Cossack officers and generals—including the cavalry Generals Pyotr Krasnov and Andrei Shkuro—to a nearby Red Army-held town and handed them over to the Red Army commanding general, who ordered them tried for treason. Many Cossack leaders had never been citizens of the Soviet Union, having fled revolutionary Russia in 1920;[16] hence they believed they could not be guilty of treason.

Some were executed immediately. High-ranking officers were tried in Moscow, and then executed. On 17 January 1947 Krasnov and Shkuro were hanged in a public square. Gen. Helmuth von Pannwitz of the Wehrmacht, who was instrumental in the formation and leadership of the Cossacks taken from German POW camps to fight the Soviets, decided to share the Cossacks' Soviet repatriation and was executed for war crimes, along with five Cossack generals and atamans in Moscow in 1947.[17]

On 1 June 1945 the UK placed 32,000 Cossacks (with their women and children) into trains and trucks and delivered them to the Red Army for repatriation to the Soviets;[18] similar repatriations occurred that year in the US occupation zones in Austria and Germany. Most Cossacks were sent to the gulags in far northern Russia and Siberia, and many died; some, however, escaped, and others lived until the amnesty of 1953 (see below). In total, some two million people were repatriated to the Soviets at the end of the Second World War.[19]

Soviet citizenship controversy[edit]​

One of the core controversies that led to popular outcry and protests was the British command attitude to establishing Soviet citizenship per Yalta agreement, as the camp contained a broad mix of citizens of various countries, including those who left USSR long before the war and obtained citizenship of other countries long before, or never were Soviet nationals. British Foreign Office sent a telegram ordering that "any person who is not (repeat not) a Soviet citizen under British law must not (repeat not) be sent back to the Soviet Union unless he expressly desires", which was ignored by the British command on the ground.[20]

Brigadier Toby Low (later Lord Aldington) who was the chief of staff to the British forces issued an order stating "individual cases will not be considered unless particularly pressed ... In all cases of doubt, the individual will be treated as a Soviet national". As result of this policy, citizens of many countries were sent to USSR as "Soviet citizens" in a hasty operation and no right to appeal. In Tolstoy description, even people displaying a French passport or British First World War medals were handed over to Soviets.[20][21]

You sort out that mess.

 

[Kirkhill]

Canada started the war as Stalin's enemy because he was Hitler's ally.
It ended the war as Stalin's ally because he was Hitler's enemy.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Panneton says former U of A chancellor Peter Savaryn was a member of the Waffen-SS. Savaryn was U of A chancellor from 1982 to 1986 and helped found the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the university. He is also a member of the Order of Canada ...

Tick, tick, tick ....

 

[rmc_wannabe]

You sort out that mess.

I think I'd have an easier time sorting out family trees in rural Alabama...

 

[Kirkhill]

Hunka should never have been invited.

Not because of the rights and wrongs of the thing but precisely because of that mess.

Some cans of shit are best left unstirred.

 

[RangerRay]

The complicated nature Eastern Europeans fighting for competing totalitarian regimes doesn’t matter. It also doesn’t matter if Hunka did nothing more than peel potatoes or if his motives for joining the Galicia Division were driven solely by ousting the Soviets from his homeland. All that matters is that this totally preventable bone move embarrassed the Ukrainians and President Zelenskyy, gave the Russians a propaganda coup (nuance doesn’t matter), and made the Canadian government look like amateur hour.

 

[lenaitch]

I can picture it now. A young staffer in his riding or Speaker's office (I'll vote for riding since he is from North Bay) comes to Rota's chief of staff claiming 'Hey, I know this old Ukrainian guy in your hometown who fought the Russians during WWII. Great connection to now huh?' I can perhaps forgive younger staffers since nobody teaches much history anymore, and if its not on social media it doesn't exist. If Rota stood up cold in the House well, sucks to be him. If he had prior knowledge, given his age alarm bells should have gone off.

 

[Navy_Pete]

If nothing else this has been a good forcing function to go back and re-read a lot of the history for things I didn't really appreciate at the time when I read about it 30+ years ago as a teen. At the time, outlook on life was a lot more black and white, where now realize things are most shades of grey, and sometimes you go with the least terrible option.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Hunka should never have been invited.

Not because of the rights and wrongs of the thing but precisely because of that mess.

Some cans of shit are best left unstirred.

Like actors who portray villains in movies say, no one thinks of themselves as the bad guys (or not many).

Hunka probably thinks thought of himself as a patriot and his family also probably had a positive opinion of him. Otherwise, why did they start the endowment in his name and (according to some reports) why did his son make the request to the Speaker (office?) for the invite to hear the Ukrainian President address Parliament (and probably provided the characterization of his father being a Ukrainian war hero who fought against the Russians).

Yes, someone in Rota's orbit should have made the timeline connection about fighting Russians, but nothing surprises me about the ignorance of . . . well, a whole lot of groups. But even those responsible for "vetting" guests, what would have a search have immediately turned up with "Hunka". Googling it now gets hundreds of links to the story about that man. Last week, one might just as likely to found an obscure link to an Elvis Presley song.